Dragonbane general thread

[Wolfpack48]

I just gotta say I don't think any of these games require any familiarity at all with real military tactics. Any more than experience blacksmithing will help you keep your gear from breaking, or experience climbing will help with mountainering challenges. The rules are pretty simple to learn; it's more about a mindset of realizing that you can improve your odds by taking the environment into account.

So, yes, perhaps people with military training will figure that out sooner than those who don't, and are more likely to ask if there are applicable rules. (E.g. "Is there a rule that gives ranged attackers a bonus if they have high ground?").

But once the rules are known, it's a pretty low bar in most RPGs to apply them well.

Yeah, it's typically not too hard to get folks thinking this way, but it doesn't always come naturally either and could take some education and prompting. Stuff like:

High ground gives advantage
Obstacles provide cover
Charging a long distance into missile wielding enemies is an easy way to get pin cushioned
Surprise provides advantage
Surrounding objects (oil, grease, rolling barrels, burning cookpots of food) could be useful to put enemies on their heels
Knocking enemies prone provides advantage
Spells are better cast at a distance
Attacking from the rear is good and generally provides bonuses
Flanking enemies and distracting them is often a good tactic

Sometimes it takes the bad guys using these against players before they appreciate the value.

 

[Wolfpack48]

So, one of the criticisms I've seen against the Dragonbane initiative system is that it doesn't give any advantage to characters with high Agility when dealing the initiative cards. Asking on Discord, it seems the base rules only provide for a Heroic Ability (Lightning Fast) to allow drawing of 2 cards and picking one when dealing. This seems fine, but was thinking that a high AGL character without this HA could have a string of bad luck and draw 9s or 10s and be stuck with no way to take advantage of their high stat until they take Lightning Fast.

Is this really a problem, or should there be some house rule to tweak initiative?

 

[Bill Zebub]

So, one of the criticisms I've seen against the Dragonbane initiative system is that it doesn't give any advantage to characters with high Agility when dealing the initiative cards. Asking on Discord, it seems the base rules only provide for a Heroic Ability (Lightning Fast) to allow drawing of 2 cards and picking one when dealing. This seems fine, but was thinking that a high AGL character without this HA could have a string of bad luck and draw 9s or 10s and be stuck with no way to take advantage of their high stat until they take Lightning Fast.

Is this really a problem, or should there be some house rule to tweak initiative?

Earlier initiative isn’t necessarily better in Dragonbane.

 

[Wolfpack48]

Earlier initiative isn’t necessarily better in Dragonbane.

I was thinking more like picking initiative order rather than earlier initiative.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I was thinking more like picking initiative order rather than earlier initiative.

Got it.

Yeah, I can imagine why it would make sense to let agility impact initiative. But I wonder about a few things:

• It's not clear to me how you would do that in Dragonbane, in a way that scales smoothly across the range of scores.
• In fact, in general there are very few places where ability scores give you bonuses to actions. The only one that comes to mind is the damage die size for agi and str attacks.
• Maybe the idea that agility (or dexterity) gives you an advantage in turn order is something that seems obvious only because we have been doing it for so long. Why not intelligence? Or really experience? Is it just something we assume, but should be questioned?
• And in Dragonbane specifically, as I noted previously, going first isn't necessarily better. So even if we ascribe to the logic that high agility = fast reflexes = lets you go first, it would sometimes actually be a penalty to apply that logic. And it doesn't really make sense (to me) that agility gives you the choice of where in the order to go; that feels more like a tactical ability, and less about reflexes.

 

[Wolfpack48]

Got it.

Yeah, I can imagine why it would make sense to let agility impact initiative. But I wonder about a few things:

• It's not clear to me how you would do that in Dragonbane, in a way that scales smoothly across the range of scores.
• In fact, in general there are very few places where ability scores give you bonuses to actions. The only one that comes to mind is the damage die size for agi and str attacks.
• Maybe the idea that agility (or dexterity) gives you an advantage in turn order is something that seems obvious only because we have been doing it for so long. Why not intelligence? Or really experience? Is it just something we assume, but should be questioned?
• And in Dragonbane specifically, as I noted previously, going first isn't necessarily better. So even if we ascribe to the logic that high agility = fast reflexes = lets you go first, it would sometimes actually be a penalty to apply that logic. And it doesn't really make sense (to me) that agility gives you the choice of where in the order to go; that feels more like a tactical ability, and less about reflexes.

Well, in Dragonbane you have that option to trade your initiative card to another player or even an enemy if you decide to wait when it comes to your turn. If you have earlier initiative, it gives you the opportunity to act or wait, whereas if you are later in the round you generally will have fewer options (fewer players to trade to, therefor less opportunity to wait). It really comes down to having more options available to you.

I've always interpreted AGL/DEX to mean the ability to think on one's feet quickly in addition to just the base "act quickly" but that's probably just from years of gaming. I know many highly intelligent and experienced people who wouldn't be able to act quickly, so I guess I fold those traits into the AGL score.

But at the end of the day, perhaps "thinking on one's feet" is really a special ability captured in the Heroic Ability. Base AGL without training and experience might not mean much, so perhaps leaving it is the way to go.

 

[dbm]

In card based systems (as a Savage Worlds fan, I have a lot of practical experience of them) having more cards is how your have ‘better initiative’ since cards represent options.

Dragonbane already has a mechanic that gives a character more cards, it’s just a Heroic Ability rather than something derived from stats. Given the relatively low granularity of a 10-card deck I don’t see any obvious alternative to what they already have and I think people just need to understand the design choices.

 

[Aldarc]

I don't see why someone who has a higher DEX or AGL would somehow be better at acting first than anyone else. Dex-based Initiative never made too much sense to me in all my years of gaming, even from any notion of Simulationism. Sure there are intelligent people who are slower to act but there are also many agile people who are slower to act. I generally associate the ability of people to act quickly on their feet with their level of experience in handling various situations in their given field. This is why the Fighter even has the Veteran ability, which reflects the fact that they have have more actual prior combat experience.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Well, in Dragonbane you have that option to trade your initiative card to another player or even an enemy if you decide to wait when it comes to your turn. If you have earlier initiative, it gives you the opportunity to act or wait, whereas if you are later in the round you generally will have fewer options (fewer players to trade to, therefor less opportunity to wait). It really comes down to having more options available to you.

Yes, and I think it's a great tactical ability. But it's not one that can be scaled to an agility score: you either have this ability or you don't. So do you just have a cutoff, e.g. you get it with 15+ agi? (I mean, you could draw more cards with higher agility, but that would quickly become unwieldy.).

I've always interpreted AGL/DEX to mean the ability to think on one's feet quickly in addition to just the base "act quickly" but that's probably just from years of gaming. I know many highly intelligent and experienced people who wouldn't be able to act quickly, so I guess I fold those traits into the AGL score.

And I know incredibly agile people who I suspect would stand there looking confused in a crisis!

But at the end of the day, perhaps "thinking on one's feet" is really a special ability captured in the Heroic Ability. Base AGL without training and experience might not mean much, so perhaps leaving it is the way to go.

Yeah, I think this is right.

 

[Von Ether]

Got it.

Yeah, I can imagine why it would make sense to let agility impact initiative. But I wonder about a few things:

Then there's a whole 40 year old game that is still around, Battletech, where "winning" initiative is moving your pieces after your opponent so you can react to their movement and have more information. It also helps the game has a "declare and lock in targets first/simultaneous combat" phase. So you still have to gamble you've made good choices.

Speed (agility) makes you harder to hit. And while having a better reaction is not answered in the rule, the BT tactician will regularly have his faster units move last.