Dragonlance "You walk down the road, party is now level 2."

I recently posted on Bluesky that in 5E you could call Level 1 "Level 0" and Level 2 "Level 1/2", and then level 3 becomes level 1 - because there was an expectation that experienced players would start at level 3.

And then apparently Mike Mearls had already had the same idea for his new RPG (something similar at least!) :)

Levels 1 & 2 are there to teach new players the mechanics of their class slowly. (This is somewhat ruined by 2024 and weapon masteries).
I recall that was the common wisdom handed down from the designers relatively soon after 5e's release- that levels 1 and 2 were for newer players, and 3 was good to start at if you had a handle on things. Level 3 characters are certainly a good bit more heroic than level 1 and 2 characters, who really do feel like "put down their pitchforks and picked up a sword" (after a few months training maybe).

I definitely value the pre-5 levels though.. it feels like it helps players grow with their characters, and also (possibly) teaches them caution.
 

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In my attempt to try 5.5 I was trying to decide between running the Dragonlance Adventure or the Planescape one.

I was heavily considering the Planescape one when I noticed that it starts at level 3. I was wanting to give my group the full 5.5 experience by starting at level 1 and heading up from there.

Well the Dragonlance one starts at level 1. Well okay that works. Not my first choice but I do like Krynn.

"Level 1" is literally walk down a road. Maybe fight 2-4 guys. DING Level 2. Even if I wasn't running Milestone there is no way to get XP for that aside from just handing them story xp for reasons.

Next chapter is basically wandering around a town and talking to NPCs. Maybe go fishing. A battle erupts and they actually have an encounter or 2. One a boss monster (more or less). At the end of the day DING Level 2.

This is basically level 1-5. Also, keeping in mind these 1-2 battles vs full up Heroes who can just "go nova".

1-2 walking, light battle
3-4 Fishing and light battle
3-4 is maybe 2-4 encounters after some talking
4-5 is mostly talking with about 3 encounters near the end
5+ seems to be when the actual adventuring starts.

WTH?

Also it would seem to slow the game down to after an hour "Okay your level 2, change your sheets." 45 later "Okay your level 3 change your sheets." 30 minutes later "Your level 4 change your sheets." etc.

Just start the game at 5.

Just wild IMO.

Is this normal now? I get 5E is meant more for telling stories then roaming dungeons but man the first 5 levels are just handed out for more or less free.
Yes, this is the new normal.

No prizes for guessing how I feel about this...decision.
 

I recently posted on Bluesky that in 5E you could call Level 1 "Level 0" and Level 2 "Level 1/2", and then level 3 becomes level 1 - because there was an expectation that experienced players would start at level 3.

And then apparently Mike Mearls had already had the same idea for his new RPG (something similar at least!) :)

Levels 1 & 2 are there to teach new players the mechanics of their class slowly. (This is somewhat ruined by 2024 and weapon masteries).
The problem is, levels 1 and 2--and to an extent even levels 3 and 4!--have to serve three masters.

Master the First: "New players don't know what's going on. They need a gentle introduction that won't overwhelm them, so they can develop confidence and become happy, engaged players."

Master the Second: "Old-school fans need to have at least a period of extreme, ever-present danger, otherwise they won't feel their victories are earned. They need a brutal introduction that won't coddle them, so they can feel comfortable with their successes (and failures)."

Master the Third: "Various subsets of the fanbase desire observable, organic growth, so they want to see the character develop. They need a baseline introduction that won't presuppose things, so they can feel their characters actually journeyed and evolved."

The problem is, all three of these masters demand different results. You cannot meaningfully serve all three masters with one, singular, equally-applied set of rules. It just isn't possible, and throwing DMs to the wolves by telling them "eh, we made a system, you figure out how to squeeze the game you want out of it" is not an acceptable response.

It's more than a little annoying, though, that Mearls and others are finally discovering the benefits of Novice Levels + Incremental Advances and how such things can make for a much smoother, better experience for all three groups, by enabling a single set of rules that can be tailored to each group's needs and preferences. Folks introducing totally brand-new players can confidently use Novice Levels where the PCs have a lot of health, but not very many actions, so that the new players aren't overwhelmed but also aren't being blitzed by the meatgrinder--all without having to put on "kid gloves" with fights or being hyper-selective about what opponents the PCs face. Old-school fans can have their mega-brutal ultra-lethality meatgrinder introductory experience, and they can stretch out the levelling process almost indefinitely while still feeling progress in concrete, but small, steps. And folks who want organic growth now have a whole spectrum of options to choose from, everything from "you start out with nothing, build your character through your choices" all the way up to "you're basically an nth-level character, but without a class...yet" and anything in-between.

I don't get on a soapbox about this for nothing. It really, truly is a way to serve all of the different masters here, AND do so in a way that doesn't shortchange any players. Everyone gets the same content--everyone plays through all 20 or 10 or 30 or whatever levels--but some play through it more....thoroughgoingly than others.
 

The gross majority of plays doesn't play those meatgrinder starting levels. I don't think that's anywhere close to what regular 5e play looks like these days.

In my own campaigns, I stretch or skip early levels to my liking. One thing that has significantly improved my verisimillitude is making the party "chosen by the gods", or "fated for greatness". This helps explain to me why they grow in power so fast.
 

Also it would seem to slow the game down to after an hour "Okay your level 2, change your sheets." 45 later "Okay your level 3 change your sheets." 30 minutes later "Your level 4 change your sheets." etc.

Just start the game at 5.

Just wild IMO.

Is this normal now? I get 5E is meant more for telling stories then roaming dungeons but man the first 5 levels are just handed out for more or less free.
It may be normal in adventure modules (no idea to be honest) but I've never played in a group like this before. I've seen DMs start at higher levels, and I've seen DMs start at level 1 where it takes anywhere from 5-10 play sessions to level up. This is really easy to do with Milestone leveling, because players level up when you say they do, it's literally impossible for them to level up "too fast".

I completely agree with you that starting at Level 1 but then leveling up within a play session would be incredibly disruptive and just plain awkward. Skip the levels or play the levels for real, either is totally fine but pick a lane
 

One thing that has significantly improved my verisimillitude is making the party "chosen by the gods", or "fated for greatness". This helps explain to me why they grow in power so fast.
I have a similar rationalisation but from the opposite end.
Most humans level cap at 9th, something extraordinary needs to happen to the PC in order to exceed 9th level. The bracketed details are things that have occurred in our campaign.
- a Chosen by the gods (5e FR storyline)
- awashed by deific ectoplasm (destruction of an eye tyrant that had been feeding of the undead in the Mere of the Dead, which had been infused by Myrkul upon his death in that area during the Time of Troubles)
- your body is a clone created by a powerful wizard (Halastar) who improved on the original design
- your body was inscribed with powerful ritual magic (multitude of Geas) by some creature (fire giant shaman) for the purposes of enslavement, whose removal infused your body with the capabilities to exceed 9th level
- pact made with a fiendish Patron (negotiated by an Ice Devil on behalf of one of the Lords of Hell)
- long period of attunement to an Artifact or part of an Artifact (Rod of 7 Parts)
...etc
 

I have noticed that the recent WotC adventure paths I have used have terrible pacing if you use milestone levelling (my players choice, not mine), or a terrible difficulty curve if you don't. Examples: Witchlight, Neatherdeap. Worked okay: Frostmaiden. Perhaps a reason why the format seems to be somewhat on the way out?

Another trend I have noticed is that adventures tend to avoid lethal combat scenarios for level 1 and 2. Presumably because these levels are far more deadly than the rest of the game. A common plot device is to have some sort of fair, where the players have challenges and mock fights, that either result in a prize or bruised egos. I tend to think of this as the NWN2 Opening, as that was the first place I encountered it.
 

I have a similar rationalisation but from the opposite end.
Most humans level cap at 9th, something extraordinary needs to happen to the PC in order to exceed 9th level. The bracketed details are things that have occurred in our campaign.
- a Chosen by the gods (5e FR storyline)
- awashed by deific ectoplasm (destruction of an eye tyrant that had been feeding of the undead in the Mere of the Dead, which had been infused by Myrkul upon his death in that area during the Time of Troubles)
- your body is a clone created by a powerful wizard (Halastar) who improved on the original design
- your body was inscribed with powerful ritual magic (multitude of Geas) by some creature (fire giant shaman) for the purposes of enslavement, whose removal infused your body with the capabilities to exceed 9th level
- pact made with a fiendish Patron (negotiated by an Ice Devil on behalf of one of the Lords of Hell)
- long period of attunement to an Artifact or part of an Artifact (Rod of 7 Parts)
...etc
A "cap" of level 9 just doesn't even come up for me. Only the player characters get levels, NPC's just are as strong as I feel like they should be. Sometimes they have similar abilities to PC's, sometimes not.

But yeah, those reasons work well!
 

@MerricB touched on this above...but the most popular and widely played 5e adventures do not follow the pattern everyone is repeating here.

LMoP: You get ambushed by goblins, track them back to their lair, and have multiple fights in the lair, plus possibly avoiding being hit by a flood. Level 2: You explore a town with a fair amount to explore, learn of and fight a local gang, find their hidden lair, fight more of them, and then have some side quests. Level 3: More side quests, overland travel, then Cragmaw Castle, from which the local goblin-kin king rules. (The sidequests in level 2 or 3 can include a dragon that can also easily kill the party).

For CoS, the deathouse lives up to its name. The opening of the Tiamat one is also infamous.

I say go with the popular route. Use level 1 and 2 and don't hold back. Which are the best point to come up with a new character, before getting too invested.
 

It depends on what genres you are inspired by. Conan, James Bond, Indiana Jones and John McClane are perfectly regular people who just so happen to be far more awesome than anyone else. On the other hand, others are only awesome because they wear bitten by radioactive spiders.

I leave it up to the players.
 
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