D&D (2024) I have a Monster Manual. AMA!

[Zaukrie]

I agree that it took me a moment to be able to read "tough" as a noun. (Though heavy has the same issue of being a adjective first). But I probably won't use any of those name in-game anyhow. I'll call 'em something more individually descriptive in an actual game. Maybe even by name!

100%. It is so much ado about nothing. Like so much here.

 

[Chaltab]

Honestly if I were going to stat Gruumsh I'd have him be a giant with the (deity) tag.

 

[Yaarel]

Gruumsh is actually now a Fey.

Are you being serious?

That can make sense too, explaining why the elven blood was spilled in the Feywild.

Plus, I suspect they are trying to humanize the Orc when also looking more carefully at Gruumsh as their origin.

Plus Gruumsh never made sense anyway, being presumably Chaotic Evil but residing in Lawful by Lawful Evil Acheron.

 

[Reynard]

Tough doesn't work that well for me. I get they were going for "a tough" but it is not a term I typically think of and my first thought is just "tough" as a description and with even the x2 hp for Cr 1/2 is still CR 1/2 and eventually not that tough when looking at the range of NPC names. Tough does not flow well when I read it in these discussions. A gnomish tough just does not sound as good to my ear as a gnomish thug when I think of a little mugger.

I can see them avoiding any hint of racial association disparagement but my personal image conception of a D&D thug is not racially associated and I get that can be different for others. Heavy might have worked better for me if they wanted to change it but tough just does not do it for me asethetically.

I like "heavy." I also like "brute" but that has negative racial connotations for some people. "Goon"?

 

[Remathilis]

Changing the media without making it a new edition is irritating and to me feels disingenuous.

Did it bother you when elves could become clerics in Unearthed Arcana when they previously couldn't be in the 1e PHB?

 

[Voadam]

Plus Gruumsh never made sense anyway, being presumably Chaotic Evil but residing in Lawful by Lawful Evil Acheron.

Sure it did. Orcs and Gruumsh have switched alignments in D&D editions.

In OD&D orcs were Chaotic and Neutral. No Gruumsh.

In 1e they were Lawful Evil and LE Gruumsh lived on the LE Nine Hells then switched to LE(N) Acheron for the eternal War against Maglubiyet.

In the Basic D&D line they were Chaotic. No Gruumsh.

In 2e orcs and Gruumsh were LE and stuck with the LE planes.

In 3e they switched orcs and Gruumsh to CE but kept the planar lore of eternal Valhalla war with spirit orcs on Acheron against Maglubiyet and his regenerating goblins spirits.

In 4e Gruumsh was CE but there is no LE eternal war plane Acheron in the Dawn War/World Axis cosmology.

In 5e with the return of the Great Wheel and Acheron CE Gruumsh was back there. In 245e it is not clear where Gruumsh stands as far as I can tell.

So if you want Gruumsh in LE Acheron to match up go with the AD&D lore on orcs and Gruumsh.

LE orcs were warlike followers, ready to join the armies of orcish warband tribes or of non-orc Evil leaders, anything where they could be given outlets for their aggression and bullying. LE Gruumsh wanted things his way in his pantheon (Iron Rule demanding strict obedience from his pantheon subordinates) and his followers and in the multiverse and tried to impose his singular vision on everything.

 

[Yaarel]

I like "heavy." I also like "brute" but that has negative racial connotations for some people. "Goon"?

In the fiver band tropes:

Jock (lead singer)
Rebel (lead guitar)
Big (drums)
Heart (accompaniment singer)
Smart (keyboard)

The Tough, Brute, etcetera correlate the Big. A Big is the idea of an "army of one".

There is also a "Sixth Member", the idea of someone from the enemy serving as a double agent, and who occasionally helps out the team.

The Heart is sometimes called the "Chick", under the influence of Princess Leah from Star Wars functioning in this role. But the Heart is just as likely to be male, such as a romantic dreamer.

The Rebel is an Antihero, but the identity is more specifically, the opposite of whatever the Jock is representing. The Jock is typically the hero of the story, and is well-rounded, while the other members are more specialized. The Jock can have many personas, depending on the nature of the story.


Characters can function in different roles at different times, depending on story.

In old school species: Human (Jock), Halfling (Rebel), Dwarf (Big), Elf (Heart), Gnome (Smart), and Orc (Sixth).

In 5.5: Human (Jock), Tiefling (Rebel), Dragonborn (Big), Dwarf (Heart), Elf (Smart).


I think I am ok with "Tough" as a profession statblock for the role of an "army of one".

 

[Yaarel]

Sure it did. Orcs and Gruumsh have switched alignments in D&D editions.

In OD&D orcs were Chaotic and Neutral. No Gruumsh.

In 1e they were Lawful Evil and LE Gruumsh lived on the LE Nine Hells then switched to LE(N) Acheron for the eternal War against Maglubiyet.

In the Basic D&D line they were Chaotic. No Gruumsh.

In 2e orcs and Gruumsh were LE and stuck with the LE planes.

In 3e they switched orcs and Gruumsh to CE but kept the planar lore of eternal Valhalla war with spirit orcs on Acheron against Maglubiyet and his regenerating goblins spirits.

In 4e Gruumsh was CE but there is no LE eternal war plane Acheron in the Dawn War/World Axis cosmology.

In 5e with the return of the Great Wheel and Acheron CE Gruumsh was back there. In 245e it is not clear where Gruumsh stands as far as I can tell.

So if you want Gruumsh in LE Acheron to match up go with the AD&D lore on orcs and Gruumsh.

LE orcs were warlike followers, ready to join the armies of orcish warband tribes or of non-orc Evil leaders, anything where they could be given outlets for their aggression and bullying. LE Gruumsh wanted things his way in his pantheon (Iron Rule demanding strict obedience from his pantheon subordinates) and his followers and in the multiverse and tried to impose his singular vision on everything.

I forgot about the Orc alignment switches.

Notably, when LLE Gruumsh is not really Evil. It is more about the cruelty of war.

Old school never used the Feywild (Faerie) as an organizing principle. But these alignment switches make the unaligned Fey a sensible decision in new school.

Actually, with the Orc-Ogre-Ogrillon-Orcus/Hades correlations in mind, I would rather see Gruumsh as residing in a Domain of Dread in the Shadowfell, and not necessarily Evil.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Did it bother you when elves could become clerics in Unearthed Arcana when they previously couldn't be in the 1e PHB?

No, because it didn't change the past.

 

[Remathilis]

No, because it didn't change the past.

But it did. Elves could not be priests. That had implications. Did Correlon show up and grant elves access to divine magic? Was it like Dragonlance where the elf gods showed up and elves found divine power? Were elves atheist before that?