D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Alzrius]

D&D had all manner of problematic elements baked into it's core, the biggest being a moral justification to kill sapient beings and take their stuff.

That's only "problematic" if you remove the context that it's a fictional activity in which participation in no way facilitates the real-life inculcation/justification of the activities depicted. And given that context is, I would argue, inherent to the activity in question, that makes it a non-issue. (Now, it is possible to remove that context, and play D&D as being actually representative of the activities depicted, but that's something that you (in the general sense of "you") bring to the table.)

I can point out a number of examples where people who believed they had a moral rationale for exterminating groups of people and acquiring their accumulated wealth

Sure, but that's not relevant. "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" is a necessary part of The Treachery of Images, the same way the fictional nature of D&D is to its "problematic" elements.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So literally the only possibilities are "unthinking drones", "pit fiend bakers", or exactly what they've done with now? I don't believe that. I especially don't believe that when I look at Eberron.

The other options require more nuance and consideration, and they are less certain to come across as intended to the public. I certainly don't think that should stop anyone from trying, but IME it often does.

 

[Remathilis]

So you want people (and yourself?) To feel bad about themselves for enjoying something that depicts morally questionable behavior as fiction? It seems like that's what you're saying to me, since its pretty clear that violence as depicted in D&D is generally unhealthy (if you remove the fictional lense, but maybe even if you don't?) and you're saying enjoying that is a reflection on the person doing so.

I want people to be aware of the moral question in the first place. "They're just orcs, it's just a game." is burying your head in the sand. We consume media without examination, we don't ask real questions what kind of media we enjoy and WHY. And we quickly assume any questions about what we like are attacks, like you just did. Because people assume they are good and morally correct, thus the things they like are also like that because why else would we enjoy it?

But as I started this conversation with, people don't want to have this conversation. They want to enjoy what they enjoy and never question it. It gives me a dopamine hit, that's all I care for.

 

[FrogReaver]

As long as we have "humanoid" opponents to fight such as veterans, toughs (aka thugs), evokers, or whatever, there is absolutely no reason IMO to not have drow and orcs as examples of special creatures instead of just "this is a drow guard*" who is absolutely no different from the human guard, orc guard, or whever.

Humanoids (of any species) can have helpless children, etc. who get fireballed just like orcs used to.

It is a pointless change IMO and a better shift would be to enforce alignments and consequences for PCs acting like murder-hobos regardless of the creature. What about young owlbears? Baby beholders? Young remorhaz? or whatever?

What about goblins or trolls or whatever you surrender? What do your PCs do with them? Slaughter them? Let them go? Turn them over to some military force for imprisonment?

Humans, tieflings, dragonborn, dwarves, etc. are all PC races and can be enemy humanoid types, so moving goblins, et al. to fey, gnolls to fiends, etc. so they can escape the "these are people so go ahead and kill them all without remorse" issue is garbage.

If there is a problem, focus on the true problem, and stop trying to gloss it over with other things.

Anyway, that is my rant about it--sorry if it isn't quite coherent.

Mostly agree. I’d just add if the solution for goblins is making them fey, they could have made orcs into something just as easily killable. Except orcs were turned into a PC option.

Maybe it’s just my group but I find more people interested in playing a goblin than an orc these days.

 

[TwoSix]

I think there are fairly easy ways to have the latter, just have them be cloned and programmed and so on. Resist the urge to humanize them much. If you keep humanizing them and showing there are "exceptions" and so on, you're just going to end up making them like a species in Star Trek. Or make them demons or whatever - beings who inherently seek to do harm and don't have human-like life cycles.

I'm leaning towards infestation myself (like the Last of Us, or the Zerg in Starcraft). Infestation naturally triggers a disease/disgust response, which tends to prime us towards violence. Hiveminds with insectile characteristics are good too (who doesn't want to squash a bug?).

 

[Remathilis]

So literally the only possibilities are "unthinking drones", "pit fiend bakers", or exactly what they've done with now? I don't believe that. I especially don't believe that when I look at Eberron.

You said you don't like the middle, so you end up moving towards the ends. You might not get to the extreme, but which side of the scale are you going to move towards?

 

[TwoSix]

But as I started this conversation with, people don't want to have this conversation. They want to enjoy what they enjoy and never question it. It gives me a dopamine hit, that's all I care for.

You are 100% correct that I don't want to have this conversation in the context of my entertainment media.

Other people can have it, of course. But I'm not making major changes to my morality at 46 years old.

 

[Mistwell]

Guys, Orcs are visually portrayed as ruthless pirates (for example) in the 2024 Monster Manual. They didn't remove them as killable foes. They just made the stats less utilitarian for those who want to actually play a game with Orcs as pirates you kill. It's the worst of all worlds: here is a foe you're intended to kill, but we're not going to tell you what to do with CR if you want that foe to actually have the "Adrenaline Rush" or "Relentless Endurance" trait the 2024 PC Orc has, or the "Aggressive" trait the 2014 MM Orc has. You figure it out. But Pirates!

 

[Scribe]

But I don't harbor any illusions that D&D is absolutely not modeling a healthy way to handle conflict between peoples, and even my noblest paladin is as soaked in blood as the most brutal despot. And if it helps people to rationalize that by making goblins less human, so be it.

I think the last part is more damaging by far.

 

[delericho]

You said you don't like the middle, so you end up moving towards the ends. You might not get to the extreme, but which side of the scale are you going to move towards?

I reject the notion that it's a linear scale. There are lots of things they could have done, moving in a variety of directions.

As I said, Eberron strikes a good balance. It's also in "the middle", but it's a different middle from the one being used here.