D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Paul Farquhar]

I mean, seriously, what is the difference.

The stories you can tell with them. Now, in addition to boring footsoldiers of evil, you can tell stories about cattle being tipped upside down, stolen babies, goblin markets and cursed maidens. Things that might require negotiating with the goblins rather than just hitting them.

 

[Reynard]

Remember, the fey goblins serving Darkness in Legend definitely still needed killing.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

goblin markets

"Goblin markets" as a concept in fantasy/urban fantasy generally don't involve actual goblins in the D&D sense though!

And Rossetti's poem of the same name has more to do with people being horny AF than anything else.

Baby-theft though, that's solidly fey, through and through. Even though Elves/Eladrin should be the main people doing it but D&D is too cowardly to pin it on them.

 

[TiQuinn]

Yeah I think you've oversimplifying it in a Kael-esque that removes the context it's from, but YMMV. I don't think your quote is remotely as persuasive to your position as you seem to think it is. Harry is already a "cop of the edge", though, for sure.

You can bring up Kael as much as you want but these are my observations. I think she hasn’t posted here since she’s been dead for years.

I just don’t see what other context I’m supposed to apply to the movie. He’s a cop on the edge but the edge of what? Every discussion he has with his superiors, Eastwood plays the character cool as a cucumber - fully in control of what he’s doing. He gets upbraided for going too far, not following the book, not reading rights, making off the cuff determinations of intent, etc. And each time, he rationalizes his decision in a way that makes it clear cut to the audience that he’s the protector of the public and the system is protecting “the guilty.”

DA: Where the hell does it say that you've got a right to kick down doors, torture suspects, deny medical attention and legal counsel? Where have you been? Does Escobedo ring a bell? Miranda? I mean, you must have heard of the Fourth Amendment. What I'm saying is that man had rights.

Harry: Well, I’m all broken up about that man’s rights.

At no point are you actually meant to feel sympathetic towards the DA’s argument because the man they happen to be talking about is a serial killer, but are we really meant to think Harry thinks differently about any other criminal? I don’t think so.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

but are we really meant to think Harry thinks differently about any other criminal? I don’t think so.

I think you're dead wrong here and the movie shows it with the bank robber scene, which is more about how Harry deals with more "traditional" criminals rather than this new breed (which was a societal concern at the time). IIRC there's also some other stuff to support that, but I'd have to rewatch it!

 

[TiQuinn]

I think you're dead wrong here and the movie shows it with the bank robber scene, which is more about how Harry deals with more "traditional" criminals rather than this new breed (which was a societal concern at the time). IIRC there's also some other stuff to support that, but I'd have to rewatch it!

He shoots like 3 or 4 of them!

It's been on TCM here in the states a few times in the past few months, and I just watched a bunch of them, and so the movie is pretty fresh in my head too.

And btw, here's the kicker - I still like the movie!

 

[DarkCrisis]

Yeah, this is bollocks. Fey are sentient beings. They are PEOPLE. As are dragons and any other sentients. The change is simply to bring the goblins into line with how they are seen in 2025 pop culture. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "it's okay to kill them because they are not people". This is a BAREFACED LIE being spread by people who hate change.

They aren't people. They are game pieces in a game. It's like worrying about how the Shoe or the Top Hat in Monoply feels about being trapped in a capitalistic society.

The Fae, Orcs, Goblins, Thieves Guild members, Kings, Dragons, Blacksmiths, Water Nymphs, Beggers, etc only exist for the scenes they are in with the PCs and then simply cease to be. Because they aren't real.

But this discussion has been had across many theads. So eh.

 

[Umbran]

This is a BAREFACED LIE being spread by people who hate change.

Mod Note:
Or, you know, they could just be wrong.

Don't ascribe to malice that which can be sufficiently explained by people just being wrong about something.

 

[AlViking]

Guys, Orcs are visually portrayed as ruthless pirates (for example) in the 2024 Monster Manual. They didn't remove them as killable foes. They just made the stats less utilitarian for those who want to actually play a game with Orcs as pirates you kill. It's the worst of all worlds: here is a foe you're intended to kill, but we're not going to tell you what to do with CR if you want that foe to actually have the "Adrenaline Rush" or "Relentless Endurance" trait the 2024 PC Orc has, or the "Aggressive" trait the 2014 MM Orc has. You figure it out. But Pirates!

What do you need to remember? That orcs have darkvision? Not hard to remember that pretty much every species other than humans have darkvision. Beyond that, what makes an orc pirate different from every other species of pirate?

 

[Umbran]

They aren't people. They are game pieces in a game.

Please leave space for it to be valid to play games in which much of the point is to interact as if the pieces were more like people.

Because, if you insist on One True Way, you may find your way is not the choice.