D&D General Playing to "Win" - The DM's Dilemma

[Lanefan]

Group (around 3rd level) was squaring off against hobgoblin troops. They (the hobgoblins) had proven quite savvy and proficient in close quarters AND in ranged combat.

The player playing a wizard PC stated he wanted to get a good look over the battlefield, cast levitate, and, in full view, floated above everyone. What happened next was completely predictable as the wizard got pin-cushioned.

I did something similar to my namesake character once (coincidentally, also against Hobgoblins) - the PCs were part of a Norse army rising up against Hobgoblins who had invaded and taken over their lands, and we were fighting a war (a few thousand troops on each side) for control of a town. The cohort I was in was getting clobbered, so in hopes of evening things up I downed a potion of growth and made myself as big as a Giant...and, Wisdom not being my strong suit, as obvious as a Giant.

I immediately became target #1 for every Hobgoblin with small-arms or spells to aim at me; and also became a target for lots of people on my own side who thought I really was a Giant that had been summoned by the Hobgoblins. Oops.

The only damage I did after that was when my now-colossal corpse squashed some people when I keeled over dead.

 

[Distracted DM]

I have another question. Do your monsters fight to the death?

Mine often try to flee when they realize there is no chance of victory- this varies based on mental processes and general personality- a cowardly goblin realizes they are in danger and will flee a lot faster than a prideful dragon. A vicious bulette will fight to the death without even giving it a second thought.

Recently, I ran a session where the party faced off against a pair of CR 5 black dragons in their lair. After delivering a savage beatdown, both dragons used all their resources to flee the battle. This really annoyed my players for some reason, even though they left their hoard behind!

"Oh great, so if we take a short rest to heal up, they got like what, 11 or more hit dice they can spend? So at any time on our way back to town, they could ambush us from the air!".

This turned into quite a discussion, as most of their non-hp resources were spent, while when the moment came, both dragons would have their breath weapons online.

Similar debates have happened in the past- if a goblin escapes, he'll alert his allies and the next encounter will be that much harder for it.

It seems my players prefer monsters that fight to the death, even if that means the tide of battle can shift in their favor in the short term!

I'll vocally make decisions about whether a creature is fighting to the death, surrendering, or fleeing- but if the situation is in doubt I'll make morale checks via wisdom saving throws.
"He's a fanatical cultist, he is going to fight to the death." "She turns tail and runs, are you going to give chase?" Etc.

My only hiccup is that when foes flee, the players will argue as much as they can that the enemy can't get away- "my monks speed is 50ft, theirs is 30," that sort of thing. Or they'll try to get parting shots, which I'll usually allow. They usually only care about runners if there's danger of them bringing back more trouble.

The best answer to this is usually "how would you want it treated if the situations were reversed?"

 

[Distracted DM]

If you believe this we have very different views of what typical D&D worlds (/games) are like.

Most published adventures, from TSR through WotC, have healers, healing potions, etc. in most towns and even villages. Even humanoid adversaries can have shamans or witch doctors or priests who can cure wounds (or inflict them).

Every, and I mean literally every, game I have ever played in has these things available and well-known of, even if expensive beyond what commoners could ever manage.

Magic, including healing magic, is well known in D&D worlds IME, and if an intelligent foes sees an injured enemy drop, just to rise again after being "magicked" back into the fight, will find an extra hit or two might lessen the chances of that injured dropped enemy from getting back into the fight.

YMMV certainly, but the bolded part is certainly false in D&D worlds I've experienced. Whether it is the commoners watching the local priest or acolyte even in procession before a service or seeing an herbalist selling a healing potion or a PC even casting a spell, MOST intelligent entities HAVE seen magical healers IMO.

Yeah, running modern DnD in a low magic world can be very tough without big modifications.

 

[KYRON45]

Is it possible we overthink all of this?

 

[BookTenTiger]

In the early days of 5E, we experimented with a house rule: fallen NPCs would start making death saves, just like fallen PCs do.

And from that point forward, every fallen foe in the battlefield got double-tapped (sometimes triple and quadruple) by the players. It was actually kind of disturbing. I ended up getting rid of that house-rule because it was creeping me out.

In d20 Conan, characters with the Pirate class got the ability to coup-de-grace as a free action. So the pirate character would walk around the battlefield, finishing off fallen foes as she went. It was pretty chilling!

 

[cranberry]

I have another question. Do your monsters fight to the death?

I know this question wasn't for me, but,,,

In my game, monsters with animal intelligence or lower will always fight to the death.

Very intelligent monsters, or significant NPC bad guys will always have an escape plan. Whether they are able to act on those plans, depends on the circumstances and the dice gods.

With all other monsters/NPCs it depends. Cultist will fight to the death. If the boss/leader/alpha is still standing, most monsters will continue to fight, even when the odds turn against them.

But the guys in my current group will chase after fleeing monsters whenever possible, so I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[cranberry]

Is it possible we overthink all of this?

I'm not sure. Let me think about it.

 

[ezo]

Yeah, running modern DnD in a low magic world can be very tough without big modifications.

I consider my game low magic in tier 1, and then slowly increase magic (spells and items) in tier 2, increasing both as the PCs continue to level. IME this makes sense simply do to how PC spellcasters themselves gain more powerful spells.

I know this question wasn't for me, but,,,

In my game, monsters with animal intelligence or lower will always fight to the death.

Why would they always fight to the death? I can see that in the case of defending their young or perhaps if they are starving, but most animals IRL will run off before fighting to the death.

Undead, constructs, etc. with low intelligence general do whatever their commands were, and often that could be to the death.

Very intelligent monsters, or significant NPC bad guys will always have an escape plan. Whether they are able to act on those plans, depends on the circumstances and the dice gods.

With all other monsters/NPCs it depends. Cultist will fight to the death. If the boss/leader/alpha is still standing, most monsters will continue to fight, even when the odds turn against them.

I'm on board with this for the most part.

But the guys in my current group will chase after fleeing monsters whenever possible, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Have their pursuit run into a larger force and get their butts kick--that should cure them of this habit quickly IME.

 

[cranberry]

Why would they always fight to the death? I

An animal intelligence monster will only attack under those circumstances you mentioned anyway(as well as protecting its territory)

So, If the PCs don't encounter them, then the animal intelligence monster had no reason to attack.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I have another question. Do your monsters fight to the death?

Some do, some don't.

Some monsters are...for lack of a better term, suffering from "lion syndrome", having become so accustomed to being the BMOC (big monster on campus), they fail to account for how wily and dangerous intelligent prey can be. Others might be defending a nest, starving and desperate, or in some way not in their right minds (e.g. magic, infection, poison, etc.)

Actually sapient monsters tend to be more clever, but there's something to note here. In Jewel of the Desert, most sapient species are accepted as part of society. Orcs, ogres, minotaurs, goblins, all sorts of races are welcome. Initially this was just a "because that's the kind of world I want to portray" situation, but as the game has developed, we've clarified exactly why this is the case. We've learned that the Genie-Rajahs, the ancestors of the modern Jinnistani nobility who ruled over the mortal world until their exodus two millennia past, were...not exactly the nicest people. It had already been established that genies keep slaves and that slavery is a BIG no-no in the Tarrakhuna (main setting of the game), but as the party has explored Genie-Rajah ruins, it's become clear that their slave trade was extensive and cruel; some Genie-Rajahs were kinder than others, but none were 100% benevolent.

Mortal-kind rose up against their cruel masters at around the same time as the exodus to Jinnistan (this is not a coincidence, but the players haven't learned why yet), and thus the nomad tribes and the revolting slaves were the two major ethnic groups that formed the modern society of the region. The people doing this revolt couldn't afford to pick and choose who could join up, and all of them despised the slavery practiced by their overlords, so this neatly explains both the firmly anti-slavery stance and the egalitarian attitude of the region.

The only exceptions to the "we accept basically all races" thing are those that are inherently about hurting and killing other people. If vampires exist (this hasn't been established either way), they'd be on the KOS list. Werehyenas are a known scourge of the deep desert, though I don't think that is transmissible by bite. Mind flayers exist and are definitely on the KOS list, though they're very rare and generally keep hidden.

So...most "sapient monsters" like minotaurs, ogres, etc. would act like any other ordinary sapient mortal being, because they're all considered "part of society". However, many of the more powerful sapient monsters that specifically prey on other mortals? They might fight to the death because they know there's no chance for them to survive if they don't throw everything they have.

(The one mind flayer the party has faced did, in fact, escape from a fight with a PC during a solo adventure to catch said PC back up with the party--which neatly explained why the mindflayer's ship had crashed into a pyramid when the rest of the party met him "later" in the world but previously in IRL terms. However, said mind flayer was far too cocky, and got himself killed by the very creature he was trying to subvert to his control, which the party then successfully cleansed of her corruption, a couatl named Tlacalicue, who is now a background ally for the party.)