D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Bedrockgames]

Is it? Considering IIRC (?) you, yourself, think of them as boring?

I think they were more likely the first removed because people got tired of them, but that's just my opinion, and in Dragonlance they had draconians to take their place as antagonists.

Dragonlance was similar to LotR in many ways do I think not having orcs and having their role filled with Draconians (which I think are way better than Dragonborn ) was how they helped distinguish the setting. It also made it feel different from other D&D worlds. But orcs we’re still a staple in most campaigns during that time

 

[Alzrius]

You don't speak for all Jewish people any more than I do.

Yes, I do speak for the Jewish community more than you do, since I'm a part of it and you (as far as you've presented yourself) are not. I don't claim to speak for all Jews, but insofar as saying how members of that group feel about something, I can hold myself up as an example and you can't. Full stop.

We are two people having a discussion on a message board. However, you seem hot and bothered about trying to take any discussion and use it attack people who are discussing in good faith. To that, you can continue this discussion alone.

I'm rather perturbed by how people who are supposedly in favor of diversity and inclusion are so quick to explain to a member of a minority group why said member is incorrect to say that a recent change that's supposedly pro-diversity is wrongheaded, yes.

I don't believe in the paradox of tolerance.

Or tolerance itself, for that matter.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Is it? Considering IIRC (?) you, yourself, think of them as boring?

I think they were more likely the first removed because people got tired of them, but that's just my opinion, and in Dragonlance they had draconians to take their place as antagonists.

We have Word-of-God as to the why: it was to make Dragonlance look less like a Tolkien knock-off. But it's more significant that the were not missed. No one said "I really can't make this Dragonlance adventure work without orcs!" And it's not like draconians were orcs in dragon suits. They were tougher and had there own special traits that made them more interesting.

 

[Bae'zel]

So the implication is that it's not enough to be a member of a minority group, but you have to have credentials now too? I'm curious how that translates over to other minorities, in your mind.

You stated that the term "phylactery" is not associated with Judaism. I have given proof from a few sites that the common understanding and perception is that it is. You're saying that Merriam Webster, Wikipedia, Brittanica and sites like www.orthodox-jews.com, www.jewishencyclopedia.com, and www.myjewishlearning.com are all wrong.

From what authority do you make these claims and accusations of ignorance and racism?

NO ONe disagrees with you that the term "phylactery" is a greek, non-Hebrew term for tefillin. We're disagreeiing with you that the term has ZERO association, when it clearly does, and your argument is that we're all clearly bigots because we disagree with you.

Welcome to my ignore list, this is going nowhere.

 

[ezo]

But it's more significant that the were not missed. No one said "I really can't make this Dragonlance adventure work without orcs!"

Really? Do you have the "Word-of-God" on that was well?

And it's not like draconians were orcs in dragon suits. They were tougher and had there own special traits that made them more interesting.

Of course they weren't, but they did serve as the primary "mook" antagonists... as orcs did in most games back then (at least IME).

But orcs we’re still a staple in most campaigns during that time

That was my experience back then, anyway.

 

[Alzrius]

You stated that the term "phylactery" is not associated with Judaism. I have given proof from a few sites that the common understanding and perception is that it is. You're saying that Merriam Webster, Wikipedia, Brittanica and sites like www.orthodox-jews.com, www.jewishencyclopedia.com, and www.myjewishlearning.com are all wrong.

From what authority do you make these claims and accusations of ignorance and racism?

From my lived experience, which you're apparently saying is wrong, because you think you're in favor of tolerance.

But then again, I've already explained to you that the association of that word with something not used by the community in question is the problem, and yet you seem to think that said community acknowledging that those associations exist somehow legitimizes them. So I wonder how much you're actually listening to begin with.

NO ONe disagrees with you that the term "phylactery" is a greek, non-Hebrew term for tefillin. We're disagreeiing with you that the term has ZERO association, when it clearly does, and your argument is that we're all clearly bigots because we disagree with you.

And I've never said that the term has "zero association." I'm saying that the association is itself something that was made by people who aren't part of the community they're associating it with, and that the better action is to start breaking that association rather than continuing to legitimize it.

Welcome to my ignore list, this is going nowhere.

Maybe next time listen to what minorities are telling you rather than trying to explain to them why they're wrong about their own community.

 

[Bedrockgames]

We have Word-of-God as to the why: it was to make Dragonlance look less like a Tolkien knock-off. But it's more significant that the were not missed. No one said "I really can't make this Dragonlance adventure work without orcs!" And it's not like draconians were orcs in dragon suits. They were tougher and had their own special traits that made them more interesting.

Dragonlance didn’t redefine the default though. It was just one setting. Later Ravenloft pretty much got rid of orcs too, and minimized demihumans as well. Those things weren’t missed because specific settings were expected to have their own flavor. A GM would often not have certain monsters or replace them with another to serve the same role

The days when dragonlance was big, it isn’t like we were closed minded about how different a campaign setting could be. But the thing that has often gotten debate is what the default ought to be (because that is the thing everyone has to work with and adjust for their own campaigns). I wasn’t super into orcs more than any other creatures, but evil orcs have long been a staple in many games.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

orcs did in most games back then (at least IME).

I don't think there were many TSR adventures were orcs were a major antagonists. The cropped up often enough on random encounter tables, and had a cave in The Caves of Chaos, but that's about it.

 

[Remathilis]

Later Ravenloft pretty much got rid of orcs too, and minimized demihumans as well.

Geek moment: can you name the source with the only canonical appearance of orcs in Ravenloft prior to 5e?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Geek moment: can you name the source with the only canonical appearance of orcs in Ravenloft prior to 5e?

I definitely don’t remember. And I had most of the books (at least most of the 2E books and 1E). Which was it in?