D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Jensaarai]

this whole conversation on liches and soul gems and whatnot probably deserves its own dedicated thread? kinda getting a little afield from orcs and drows

 

[Scribe]

this whole conversation on liches and soul gems and whatnot probably deserves its own dedicated thread? kinda getting a little afield from orcs and drows

I mean that one's kind of settled at this point, at 100 pages in lol

 

[Jensaarai]

I mean that one's kind of settled at this point, at 100 pages in lol

got a link to that thread? search wasn't really pulling up much

 

[Scribe]

got a link to that thread? search wasn't really pulling up much

Its this thread.

 

[Umbran]

Sort of like how you ignored the fact that I said we (i.e. Jews) were aware of that connection, and that the salient point is that we don't actually call it that in any sort of religious or cultural context?

I didn't ignore it. It just doesn't impact my position.

There's this unfortunate problem that comes up in discussions like these - minority groups are not monoliths. I accept that you are Jewish, and don't have an issue here. But that doesn't mean I should just bow to your position. You don't speak for Jews in general. No one person does.

That some here have no issue does not change that I was informed of this by Jews who didn't use in in any cultural context either, but they still didn't like it much. Not up in arms yowling at the world angry, but they found it distasteful and disappointing.

Changing the language is a small thing, a non-sacrifice on my part. I'm okay with my non-sacrifice for the benefit of the sensibilities of even a minority of a minority.

 

[Alzrius]

I didn't ignore it. It just doesn't impact my position.

And likewise, your point doesn't impact mine. So that was quite the pointless little tangent on your part, there.

There's this unfortunate problem that comes up in discussions like these - minority groups are not monoliths. I accept that you are Jewish, and don't have an issue here. But that doesn't mean I should just bow to your position. You don't speak for Jews in general. No one person does.

And that'd be a very salient point if not for the fact that it has already been stated by several people, including myself, in the last few pages of this thread. No one is "bowing" to anyone (what a weird way of phrasing it), and no one is claiming to speak for their entire group. But by that same token, people who aren't part of that group aren't really in a position to tell a member of said group what's in said group's best interests.

That some here have no issue does not change that I was informed of this by Jews who didn't use in in any cultural context either, but they still didn't like it much. Not up in arms yowling at the world angry, but they found it distasteful and disappointing.

And like them, I also find the removal of the word, with its implicit acknowledgment of the premise that "phylactery" as a term is a Jewish reference, to be distasteful and disappointing. So I'm glad we can agree on that much, at least.

Changing the language is a small thing, a non-sacrifice on my part. I'm okay with my non-sacrifice for the benefit of the sensibilities of even a minority of a minority.

And when the majority of a minority (or even a different minority of a minority) tells you that your non-sacrifice is to the detriment of their sensibilities, you seem okay with that too.

 

[Jensaarai]

Its this thread.

... Oh. We have different settings for posts-per-page then lol, 'cause I only see 51 pages

 

[Voadam]

Interestingly the original lich in OD&D Greyhawk does not mention a phylactery at all.

LICHES: These skeletal monsters are of magical origin, each Lich formerly being a very powerful Magic-User or Magic-User/Cleric in life, and now alive only by means of great spells and will because of being in some way disturbed. A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. They are able to employ whatever spells are usable at their appropriate level, and in addition their touch causes paralyzation, no saving throw. The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear.

The 1e MM only mentions a phylactery in passing and not as a soul receptacle.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm kind of late to the conversation, but the Lizardfolk in the MM are explicitly said to be the elemental variants of them. The humanoid Lizardfolk are nowhere to be found in the MM.

Try looking at "Mage" or "Guard" or "Bandit" or "Pirate".

The only thing Lizardfolk had to differentiate them were gear (okay... describe their gear as made out of bone) and the ability to hold their breath. That's it. That isn't difficult to include.

And no, I'm not moved by cries of "we shouldn't have to add anything!" because I don't think anyone making that claim is really thinking through the claim.

 

[Chaosmancer]

He is making a two pronged argument. One that this isn’t even the Jewish term. Two Jewish people by and large are not concerned about it being used with the Lich. I am not Jewish but my family is on my father’s side, and I know a lot of Jewish people. While I am sure you can find someone who objects, I think both @Maxperson and @Alzrius point very much reflects what I see: that this just isn’t something that most Jewish people are concerned about (you will always find exceptions, but this is literally a complaint I have never heard in real life)

Allow me to propose another point of view.

If the word Phylactery is a Christian word coming from the Greeks, and Christians are uncomfortable with the association, because Christians are aware that Christians have a long history of persecuting Jewish people and associating their religious practices and artifacts with evil and demonic forces.... can Christians decide to stop using the word?

I don't remember the exact wording used in the precise interview where this change was announced, but if they said "this word is associated with the Jewish Teiflin (spelling without looking) and we find that problematic and wish to change it"... then don't they have the right to do so? I'm incredibly glad so many Jewish gamers didn't think there was any connection between the two... but wouldn't it be awfully telling that a bunch of Christian Gamers do see the connection and want to remove it?