D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[billd91]

Yet, I feel that censoring words is not always the solution to fight a real problem. Oftentimes I wonder if it doesn't turn out to be more hurtful in the end;

More hurtful in the end? How?

a form of radicalization of sorts. The issues behind "orcs", "phylactery" and "oriental" are all very different but all come down to a form of censorship with either little explanation provided,

There's plenty of explanation provided. They're making the language more inclusive and the game less unwelcoming to people turned off by the use of those terms, whether appropriative, racist, or holding a little closely to racist tropes.

or one that is disconnected from the reality of people living out of certain regions of the US.

Has this ever been a valid reason to NOT do the right thing? There are a whole lot of people in the US who are pretty disconnected from being targeted by racial epithets that are meant for other groups - does that mean we shouldn't be avoiding use of those epithets? Because being the target of them isn't in their reality? No. We avoid those terms because it IS reality for some people living in the US, even if it is disconnected from other people. I mean - we're in this existence together, aren't we? The fact that I'm not directly connected to the experience of that reality itself doesn't mean I'm not connected, even if distantly, to people who are. Shouldn't I be agreeable to making reality suck less for them when I can?

 

[Azzy]

Another view is it was trying to celebrate and draw inspiration from Asian media

I'm sure that that was the intention. However, intentions only take you so far, and the book was filled with Orientalism. That's why care should be taken and members of the cultures should be consulted or, better yet, part of the creative process so that such gaps between intention and execution can be ironed out.

 

[Chaltab]

I have no idea. I'm talking about the earth, which does.

...Never mind I misunderstood what that meant.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm sure that that was the intention. However, intentions only take you so far, and the book was filled with Orientalism. That's why care should be taken and members of the cultures should be consulted or, better yet, part of the creative process so that such gaps between intention and execution can be ironed out.

We kind of covered this when it came up before. I don’t think the books are perfect but I also think they were pretty good for their times. I probably have more criticisms of the second one but like them both.

I think the whole cultural consultant and sensitivity reader thing isn’t helpful. I mean a cultural consultant can be useful sometimes. But it also became this thing where it’s sold purpose was to avoid controversy rather than just make the games interesting. Having designers who know the culture is I think often useful but it depends on the nature of the project. I kind of want everyone to be free to play with whatever culture or historical era interests them. Boxing people on based on their identity is one of the things I was thinking of when I said this stuff is sometimes more regressive than progressive. Having more Asian writers and designers is I think a good thing but I don’t think we should assume they all want to work on Asian themed project (some might and some might not). I just think we have gone too far in the direction of walking on eggshells. Which means instead of being open and curious about non-western settings, people feel a bit paralyzed, out of fear they will do it wrong

 

[DinoInDisguise]

Shouldn't I be agreeable to making reality suck less for them when I can?

Without commenting on the specifics. I think we should always aim to make the world a better place for those around us. But I think there is some folly in chasing the proverbial ghost of making the world a better place for those we don't know. This is especially true when the topic is subjective, as words often are.

At a certain point in changes like the one's discussed here, more harm than good is done. If we have a word that only offends one person, should we use it? The question may seem odd, but there is a line where the limitation of creative thought is worse than the people affected.

I'm not here to debate that limitation, or to comment on the words in this thread. But I think there is a limit. A point where the value of the word trump the negatives. Where that line is, like the words themselves, is subjective though.

Food for thought, I suppose.

 

[Azzy]

We kind of covered this when it came up before. I don’t think the books are perfect but I also think they were pretty good for their times. I probably have more criticisms of the second one but like them both.

I think the whole cultural consultant and sensitivity reader thing isn’t helpful. I mean a cultural consultant can be useful sometimes. But it also became this thing where it’s sold purpose was to avoid controversy rather than just make the games interesting. Having designers who know the culture is I think often useful but it depends on the nature of the project. I kind of want everyone to be free to play with whatever culture or historical era interests them. Boxing people on based on their identity is one of the things I was thinking of when I said this stuff is sometimes more regressive than progressive. Having more Asian writers and designers is I think a good thing but I don’t think we should assume they all want to work on Asian themed project (some might and some might not). I just think we have gone too far in the direction of walking on eggshells. Which means instead of being open and curious about non-western settings, people feel a bit paralyzed, out of fear they will do it wrong

If egregious Orientalism makes a product "more interesting", chances are it's already a crap sandwich. I'd rather have something that actually reflects the different cultures than a book of bad stereotypes—that would be far more interesting.

Hell, going wide here, Erich von Däniken's books were "interesting", but they were kinda racist and were factually incorrect dumpster fires. So, his opinions on the Nazca Lines are uninformed, unlike the archeologists that actually study the Nazca culture. Why would anyone trust a source that has less than a surface-level understanding of something rather than something that goes deep and written by people that have a far deeper understanding of what they're writing about.

And if trying to act with respect is "walking on eggshells", I'll take the "eggshells" rather than trite stereotypes.

 

[Chaltab]

Seriously I wouldn't even begin to try and make a product like OA. I don't know enough about East Asia.... and more importantly I know that I don't know enough to always distinguish between good reliable sources and bad sources. Wikipedia can only get you so far when trying to write about another culture. And obviously the earlier editions of the game didn't even have the benefit of that.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If egregious Orientalism makes a product "more interesting", chances are it's already a crap sandwich. I'd rather have something that actually reflects the different cultures than a book of bad stereotypes—that would be far more interesting.

I think part of the issue with orientalist is it is a pretty muddy concept. I don't think we should get into that here. But I do think taking Said's book and applying it to all kinds of media is a flawed lens (or at least only one among any lenses you an apply). I did have to read it in college. But it has been a long time. So it isn't something I would want to get deep into since I am hazy.

Hell, going wide here, Erich von Däniken's books were "interesting", but they were kinda racist and were factually incorrect dumpster fires. So, his opinions on the Nazca Lines are uninformed, unlike the archeologists that actually study the Nazca culture. Why would anyone trust a source that has less than a surface-level understanding of something rather than something that goes deep and written by people that have a far deeper understanding of what they're writing about.

I don't know what Chariot of the Gods has to do with anything. It is a terrible book in terms of history. But it is also not something I have a whole lot of interest in. I don't think anything I have said here was in any way an argument for taking him seriously as a source. When it comes to history sources, I would say trust reliable, peer reviewed, university press sources when you can.

And if trying to act with respect is "walking on eggshells", I'll take the "eggshells" rather than trite stereotypes.

Sometimes it is less respectful to walk on eggshells. I think we've erected a lot of taboos around being creative these days, that are actually making it harder for people to connect with each other across cultures. I am not saying, let's just be offensive and rude. That isn't my point. My point is we can lighten up a little on this stuff and be more charitable in how we interpret peoples efforts to include cultural inspiration outside their own

 

[Bedrockgames]

Seriously I wouldn't even begin to try and make a product like OA. I don't know enough about East Asia.... and more importantly I know that I don't know enough to always distinguish between good reliable sources and bad sources. Wikipedia can only get you so far when trying to write about another culture. And obviously the earlier editions of the game didn't even have the benefit of that.

You shouldn't work on something you feel uncomfortable doing. But I think we have kind of turned historical accuracy into an idol in these conversations. Sometimes yes, that is what you want, and you should strive for it. Sometimes you are just taking vague inspiration from history to apply to a fantasy setting. Getting historical facts or cultural facts wrong, isn't a sin. Sometimes it can be interesting. I watch a lot of movies from places like China and when they take on western stuff, they often get things incorrect, but that often leads to something new and interesting on its own (one example of this is some of the efforts I have seen Chinese movies, books and shows make to name a character who is from a western country-----there have been some real interesting names that are definitely not western but quite colorful). I think in the end, it is about what you are trying to achieve. But these are just games, and no one is going to die if someone makes a setting that uses a cultural detail incorrectly. And I am not saying people shouldn't research or consult with experts. I just think that doesn't always need to be the priority

 

[pemerton]

Which means instead of being open and curious about non-western settings, people feel a bit paralyzed, out of fear they will do it wrong

Which people?

I've been reading some Kenyan-authored fiction recently. It doesn't walk on eggshells about portraying Kenya.

Now admittedly I had to go to Kenya to buy it - distributors of novels in Australia don't generally pick up Kenyan titles. (Other than some of the very best-known authors who have been reviewed in the UK or US literary press.)

I have no idea how contemporary American-authored RPGs set in the contemporary world deal with (say) Nairobi; I've not looked for any. The most recent RPG book I recall reading that tried to have something African-themed was the 4e Dark Sun book, and it was pretty racist.