D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Bedrockgames]

It's not that muddy, especially in this context.

From the back cover of the original OA:

The mysterious and exotic Orient, land of spices and warlords, has at last opened her gates to the West.​

There is then some more text, more prosaic, that concludes "The world of samurai and ninja awaits!" This already implies that I can't build a samurai using a D&D fighter, or a ninja using a D&D thief, assassin or monk. But why not?

Nothing is stopping you from building a samurai with a D&D fighter, but Samurai, Ninja and Wuxia tropes are a bit different from King Arthur tropes, so having a class that reflects the genres these come from is good in my opinion. I don't think it is a commentary on differences between western and asian cultures, so much as it is an effort to emulate and celebrate the media these things come from. I am not saying OA perfectly captures these or that they couldnt' be improved upon. But I don' think 'the world of samurai and ninja' is a huge problem

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think that it's best to try to learn about others by listening to them. If they say that there's a problem about how they are represented in media, then there's a problem.

But we have already seen how quickly that gets complicated, because you are going to get contradictory opinions from the same group of people. This is why I mentioned mafia media. I am not saying don't listen to people, but I don't think you stop at 'someone from group X said Y so we have to do it that way'

 

[Azzy]

But we have already seen how quickly that gets complicated, because you are going to get contradictory opinions from the same group of people. This is why I mentioned mafia media. I am not saying don't listen to people, but I don't think you stop at 'someone from group X said Y so we have to do it that way'

Being complicated is better than not trying at all. After all, we'll never get everything right, but we must try do the best that we can.

 

[Dire Bare]

Dave Cook checked out every book on East Adia that was available at the Lake Geneva Public Library. Which is nowhere near enough to have done the concept justice.

Cook did his best to write OA with respect and interest in Asian cultures, and he did his best to research the topic . . . . but society really wasn't having these types of conversations we have today, and the resources available to Cook were limited. Academics certainly were having the discussion on "orientalism" at the time, but not in the mainstream.

I don't take issue with Cook himself, his intent was certainly a positive one.

But today, we can do better. We are having these conversations, we are hearing from more diverse voices, we are aware, we do have the resources. I don't take issue with Cook in the 80s, but I most certainly do take issue with folks who would publish an "Oriental Adventures" today. Or who give pushback on publishers working to make their products more inclusive by removing terms like "race" and "phylactery". Ugh, gets under my skin.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The mysterious and exotic Orient, land of spices and warlords, has at last opened her gates to the West.​

I wouldn't use the term orient anymore as I stated. But I think exotic is a perfectly acceptable word to describe a culture the audience isn't as familiar with. It isn't a pejorative. To people outside the west, the west is an exotic place. Maybe if the book was written for an audience living in China or Japan, calling an asian location exotic, would be off. But OA was written for an audience that was largely in places like the US, Canada and the UK (obviously people in places like Australia too but by and large, the audience was perceived as being in Europe or the Americas). So I think it is an apt description, that isn't trying be judgmental about Asian culture. My wife is from Thailand and to her a lot of our media is exotic. Again I think things like intent matter here. If someone is going out of their way to be offensive or denigrate Asian people, that is one thing. If someone is just trying to express the wonder of a distant location with colorful language, and they are doing it out of a sense of admiration for the culture, the culture media or source material from the culture, I don't see a big issue.

 

[pemerton]

And people were complaining at the tone about all the changed WotC made, and hoe much better things were in the 90s, etc.

More recently, Tomb of Annihilation had a Sub-Saharan Africa Setting, that was somewhat problematic: the response was intense enough that WotC admitted that they had not run the book by any PoC readers, which directly led to adopting sensitivity readers.

Even more recently, Journeys Trugh the Radiant Citadel included a number of African-themed Settings by Black writers 4 IIRC: one an 18th century Southeastern US diaspora Southern Gothic setting replacing the slave trade with a magical exodus, o e an Afro-Carribean/New Oreans style Cty State going through a Mardi Gras, and two West African Settings.

I don't have strong views about who can write authentically about what, as a matter of abstract principle. I can observe, though, that a lack of familiarity can often lead to grasping at received ideas and stereotypes.

Teju Cole's essay on the Black Panther is pretty interesting on this, in my view: On the Blackness of the Panther

 

[Dire Bare]

But we have already seen how quickly that gets complicated, because you are going to get contradictory opinions from the same group of people. This is why I mentioned mafia media. I am not saying don't listen to people, but I don't think you stop at 'someone from group X said Y so we have to do it that way'

It's not really complicated. It just requires being open to different voices who express upset and judging each instance on it's own. Will we all agree? Will we always get it right? No, of course not. But it is better to err on the side of inclusivity and respect than dig in our heels on using terms that others find offensive, even if not "everyone" in a particular group finds it offensive.

Christopher Columbus is a revered historical figure for many Italian Americans, even today, as he was, in a sense, the first Italian American. When I was a kid in school, we celebrated Columbus Day and were taught that Columbus was a brave explorer and hero who "discovered" America.

Today . . . many communities have changed Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day. Because, as it turns out, Columbus was an awful, awful man who did terrible, terrible things. And didn't even really discover America anyway!

Yet, some in the Italian American community still revere Columbus and get very upset at efforts to teach the truth about the man, or shift the focus to the indigenous peoples affected by European colonialism.

But hey, since some Italian Americans still revere Columbus, we should continue to teach the white-washed version of his story in public schools, and switch Indigenous Peoples Day BACK to Columbus Day, amirite?

 

[Dire Bare]

I don't have strong views about who can write authentically about what, as a matter of abstract principle. I can observe, though, that a lack of familiarity can often lead to grasping at received ideas and stereotypes.

Teju Cole's essay on the Black Panther is pretty interesting on this, in my view: On the Blackness of the Panther

As a cis straight white male . . . can I write fiction or design games that include characters or cultures who are not like me? Of different genders, sexuality, ethnic backgrounds, religious backgrounds? Of course I can! But . . . if I'm going to do so respectfully, do I need to put in the work and strive to avoid falling into cliches and stereotypes? Hell yes. It's not complicated, it's just work.

I don't respect creators who are not willing to put in that work. I don't respect fans who complain that the work is not necessary.

I do respect creators who do, even if they don't always get it right. I respect creators who constantly push themselves to be better and acknowledge and fix mistakes they have made in the past.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't have strong views about who can write authentically about what, as a matter of abstract principle. I can observe, though, that a lack of familiarity can often lead to grasping at received ideas and stereotypes.

Teju Cole's essay on the Black Panther is pretty interesting on this, in my view: On the Blackness of the Panther

The Radiant Citadel material is really awesome, and takes unexpected directions very different than .lsr D&D material has twmdes towards. Very fresh.

 

[pemerton]

I think exotic is a perfectly acceptable word to describe a culture the audience isn't as familiar with.

Whereas there is nothing at all "exotic" about the world of King Arthur, which is perfectly familiar to late-twentieth-century inhabitants of the American mid-west . . .

And that's before we get to the assumptions about who "the audience" is.