D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[AnotherGuy]

I remember writing a letter to Marvel Comics in response to Conan 218 - May 1989 - remonstrating with them for the racism in that issue, and suggesting to them that they did not need to follow in REH's footsteps in that respect. (I don't believe my letter was published.)

I loved the letter section of the comics. I suppose the internet takes care of that now. I'm a little too nostalgic to really equate the letter section with the internet.
I remember how the letter section made me enjoy comics even more thanks to keen insights by other readers.

One of my favourite runs as a kid, which ironically dealt with racism, was Green Lantern's Mosaic (92-93) which saw a whole bunch of peoples uprooted from different worlds and placed together rather haphazardly for an exercise, to see if they could construct a cohesive society with disparate races.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I've always heard it's fine for things to be Oriental but not people. It does get a bit complicated, I was surprised to learn that some older Asians here in the United States and Canada prefer Oriental to Asian. Younger Asians prefer not to be referred to as Oriental. You can't please everyone all the time. Language changes. I think sometimes the changes are silly, but that's because humans are sometimes silly, so what should I expect? At least in some cases, like not using the worlds phylactery or Oriental, they're trying to avoid hurt feelings. It's not like they're trying to use language to deny the existence of anyone in particular.

This is really an American thing, to be honest. My wife's from Singapore and I can tell you that it's a fairly non-controversial word on plenty of buildings.

Interestingly in 15th century England, it seems to have been used to refer to people in the east of England (ie Essex).

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's like the digression about Oriental Adventures. While the title is somewhat of an issue, that's most certainly NOT the actual issue with the book. The ACTUAL issue with the book is that the word "Oriental" is taken to mean "Japan" and Japanese culture and history is overlaid on top of every other Asian culture and history and presented as what it means to adventure in "The Orient".

This is the kind of focus on language and hidden meaning I am talking about. "Too much Japan" is a perfectly valid complain (I actually share it because I usually want to run more of a wuxia and kung fu type setting). But it isn't part of a secretly evil agenda. And it is also a strong oversimplification. Asian still refers to a large geographic and cultural region. The original OA was a combo of Japan and Chinese cultural inspiration (maybe some korean here and a few other cultures there) because of Kung Fu/Wuxia and Chambara movies. Also movies in the west that were inspired by Chinese and Japanese cinema (martial arts media inspired by Chinese and Japanese media were extremely popular in places like the US in the 80s). That is the material the writer was drawing inspiration from because that was what would have been in the air at that time.

Which, of course, is utter and complete bollocks. Imagine if WotC did an Occidental Adventures book where every class, every piece of equipment, and a large chunk of the monsters were translated into Arabic. After all, Persia is the source of real culture in Europe isn't it? It's the only culture that matters, no? Those other cultures in Europe? Meh, no one cares about those. We can just overwrite those. No one would possibly complain would they?

Japan wasn't the only culture that mattered in OA. It had a lot of prominence because Japanese media and martial arts were popular. But you also had plenty of Chinese stuff in there. That said, if they made a fantasy game called Western Adventures and everything was based on Persian or Arabic or even Mesopotamia, I don't think I would particularly care. The real question would be whether those things would resonate with me. I wouldn't see them as some kind of hidden assault on England or Europe. I may see them as a less gameable decision if I am not into middle east history (thankfully I am so I wouldn't mind a setting like that: most of my fantasy settings tend to be ancient mediterranean based and ancient near east).

And sure, you might get complaints. But I think a lot of people on my side of this debate criticize and complain about stupid things too.

Also I am not saying OA was perfect or anything, or that if they were to do it again they shouldn't make improvements. But I think reading the prominence of Japan as some kind of political thing is pretty misguided (I mean I could see that if the game came out of Asia where that decision might actually carry more political significance). But all it meant in OA was people thought Samurai and Ninja were really cool tropes

But overwrite all of China, Korea, Vietnam, and FFS INDIA in favor of a romanticized version of Japan? Oh, yeah, there's no problem at all with that. Totally understandable. Totally acceptable. Why one earth would anyone have any issue with that? After all, only Japan matters right?

I think OA was largely focused on East Asian material because that is the media it was drawing on. I wouldn't have expected it to cover all of Asia. I think it is find to have a book that covers places like India, Thailand, China, etc. But that was never really the aim I think of OA. It was more about bringing the Asian media that western audiences were familiar with and that were popular here to life at the table. And there is nothing wrong with that. Kung Fu and Samurai movies were global phenomena and great achievements in film making

 

[Remathilis]

Pemerton this is clearly just a semantic argument you are making. The fact is: Game X used to have Y, but current version of X no longer has it, so Y has been removed from the game is a perfectly reasonable useage of this language. That Y exists in earlier versions of the game in libraries or out in the world as a platonic idea, doesn't change the fact that it is not in the current edition. It isn't even an important point, but I am finding this particular argument you are making quite baffling

My problem is that as an opportunity cost, there is very little lost. It's not like the removed liches from the game or removed the concept of it keeping its soul elsewhere. By your own admission, the damage done is "it's a less cool word" which doesn't even register on the "damage done" scale. Will someone please think of the logophiles!

 

[Bedrockgames]

My problem is that as an opportunity cost, there is very little lost. It's not like the removed liches from the game or removed the concept of it keeping its soul elsewhere. By your own admission, the damage done is "it's a less cool word" which doesn't even register on the "damage done" scale. Will someone please think of the logophiles!

Well a lich phylactery is pretty iconic (at least for those of us who like lichens and undead). But sure if all that had been changed was phylactery, I might quibble but it would be a more muffled complaint. It is that we are rewording so many things out of an over abundance of caution that concerns me. And I think overall that does impact the feel and flavor of the game.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

This is really an American thing, to be honest. My wife's from Singapore and I can tell you that it's a fairly non-controversial word on plenty of buildings.

Whether a word is viewed as appropriate or not is generally tied up with power dynamics and power structures - i.e. who's included in them, and who's not. Hegemonic groups can usually withstand much more linguistic discourtesy, because their hegemony is not threatened; marginalized or alienated groups are apt to be more affected because it reinforces their exclusion and powerlessness.

When conversation is international (e.g. on ENWorld), or if a product is being targeted at an international audience, it's generally a good idea to develop an awareness of different expectations in different cultural milieux.

Sometimes we screw up. Then we just apologize, log the faux pas, and try not to repeat it in the future.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Will someone please think of the logophiles!

Thank you. I couldn’t agree more !

 

[Hussar]

Criticism has reached a level where it does actually make the game somewhat untenable because you have to second guess every creative act,

And, yet, funnily enough, millions of people are perfectly capable of performing these creative acts week after week, month after month, all without any major problems. Never minding the hundreds of authors in the RPG sphere who are busily beavering away every month, publishing hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of material, every single month, all without any major issues.

I mean, good grief, ENSider is on what, issue 500? I've yet to hear a single peep about how they are having these massive difficulties creating material.

When I noodle around DM's Guild, every month there are hundreds of new publications for D&D. All, apparently, not second guessing every creative act.

Everywhere I go, I see hundreds of pages of new RPG material being produced at all levels from basic fan to highly polished, professional writers. All somehow managing to continue to work in the field without any major problems.

It's almost like ... there really isn't a problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And, yet, funnily enough, millions of people are perfectly capable of performing these creative acts week after week, month after month, all without any major problems. Never minding the hundreds of authors in the RPG sphere who are busily beavering away every month, publishing hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of material, every single month, all without any major issues.

I mean, good grief, ENSider is on what, issue 500? I've yet to hear a single peep about how they are having these massive difficulties creating material.

When I noodle around DM's Guild, every month there are hundreds of new publications for D&D. All, apparently, not second guessing every creative act.

Everywhere I go, I see hundreds of pages of new RPG material being produced at all levels from basic fan to highly polished, professional writers. All somehow managing to continue to work in the field without any major problems.

It's almost like ... there really isn't a problem.

It is a real problem. Just like the Hays code was a real problem. Some people will agree with the code and happily churn out material within its scope, some will still turn our masterpieces even with the restrictions. Now the code today is more self imposed, sort of how many movies, but not all, became more tame in the 80s (compared to the 70s). Doesn’t mean 80s movies were bad or nonexistent but I don’t think these kinds of constraints are good generally for arts and entertainment

I think creatively the past ten years have been a big challenge for people. I do also think we are thankfully reaching a point where many of these ideas are being challenged and even rejected and that is good (though I also have my concerns about the pendulum swinging too far in a different direction). It does depend on where you are though as POD has opened up the industry to anyone who wants to publish

Also when you start going after fundamentals, like going into dungeons, killing things and taking their stuff, for a lot of people that does make the game harder, less fun etc

 

[Hussar]

The original OA was a combo of Japan and Chinese cultural inspiration

No. It really, REALLY wasn't. The geography was clearly meant to be China, but the culture was 100% Japanese. Right down to using JAPANESE language to describe everything in the setting. You do understand why that might be just the tiniest bit of a problem right? There's kinda a bit of history going on there. One that might be somewhat sensitive to having China and Chinese culture being overwritten by Japan. Ring any bells?

And you're going to tell me that if they rewrote the PHB, named everything in Arabic, changed all the art to show nothing but Middle Eastern people and styles that no one would bat an eye, well, I'm thinking that might not be correct.