D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Guest 85555]

something as endlessly as you have?

I went to uni in the late 80's and all these issues were issues THEN. Remember the word "politically correct"? That isn't a new word. That's been around since at least the 80's. People have been making EXACTLY the same arguments that you are making, for a very, very long time.

This is a complicated topic because there were still lots of important things changing in society in the 80s. But political correctness also did start to overreach to the point that someone like Roger Ebert (who always struck me as pretty progressive) called it the fascism of the 90s. And it did fade after it went from Academia into Mainstream media. I am not saying it was all bad. There are language changes that happened that I agree with. But I think you are making the mistake of thinking, and I could be wrong but this is how it is coming across to me from your posts, that someone who objects to the linguistic focus of things like political correctness or the criticisms we are seeing today, is against tolerance, progress, or is somehow rightwing. And I am not commenting on other people’s politics here (who other posters voted for isn’t really my business). But it is annoying when people paint with such broad strokes in these debates and appear to assume other things about your beliefs.

 

[Hussar]

Also when you start going after fundamentals, like going into dungeons, killing things and taking their stuff, for a lot of people that does make the game harder, less fun etc

And, who is doing this? Is there a dearth of dungeon crawl adventures being published? Is it impossible to have a dungeon crawler? News to me.

Now, what might be a bit stickier is a set up like, say, Keep on the Borderlands, where there are some pretty serious colonialist vibes going on. But, let's be honest, we're not really losing much there. Something like KotB has been done to death, so, telling authors that they might want to put just a tiny bit more effort into their writing isn't really much of a loss.

You've repeatedly claimed that creatives are being forced to obey some sort of code, yet, you've refused to provide any actual evidence. OTOH, there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that the hobby is perfectly healthy, creative, and churning out really cool ideas all the time.

One has to start to question just where you are getting this idea that anyone is "going after" anything.

 

[Hussar]

But it is annoying when people paint with such broad strokes in these debates and appear to assume other things about your beliefs.

Hey, that's gotta be a new record. We've gone from bringing up tiny side issues to completely ignoring real issues, to shifting the goalposts and now we have the "Help I'm being oppressed" cry. All within about four posts. That's impressive. Take a drink!

Yeah, I made the mistake of posting in this thread again thinking that it might be productive. But, nope. Same old song and dance. Shame on me for failing to hit that unsubscribe button. My bad.

 

[Guest 85555]

No. It really, REALLY wasn't. The geography was clearly meant to be China, but the culture was 100% Japanese. Right down to using JAPANESE language to describe everything in the setting. You do understand why that might be just the tiniest bit of a problem right? There's kinda a bit of history going on there. One that might be somewhat sensitive to having China and Chinese culture being overwritten by Japan. Ring any bells?

I am familiar with the issues you are talking about but this point, again, is an example of the focus on hidden oppression in text I am talking about. Your reading is obviously not what the OA designer was intending. I think you are downplaying the amount of Chinese influence in OA, but since I am pressed for time and would honestly need to review the OA to seriously address that part of your argument, lets concede your point for the sake of discussion. Let's say over 90 percent is Japanese. While I share your frustration, because one of the things I disliked about OA was I often used it for more kung fu craze style adventures, and the heavy focus on samurai movies and the heavy focus on Japanese culture in general, made it not as useful in that respect, I don't see a hidden agenda here. I mean yes, if the book came out in China or Japan, I might (I commented in another thread about how I like Ip Man movies but also am aware of the propaganda in them around the issue of Japan). But it came out in the US and is clearly a love letter to things like chambara films. Generally I found fans of asian media often split into groups of fans who leaned more into the hong kong stuff, and fans who leaned into he Japanese stuff (and some were certainly interested in both equally). I think the OA seems to reflect a write who was simply more into Japanese stuff, and as I said before there is nothing nefarious about that.

And you're going to tell me that if they rewrote the PHB, named everything in Arabic, changed all the art to show nothing but Middle Eastern people and styles that no one would bat an eye, well, I'm thinking that might not be correct.

Well if you rewrite the default book to take out what is essentially the Tolkien and medieval fantasy influence, sure, but the core books aren't occidental or western in general, they are largely European inspired (though not purely that). I think people have an expectation that the language and terms in the PHB are going to stay the same. I wouldn't be offended as I really love the Arabic language. And I especially wouldn't be bothered if they largely kept things as they are but added some options that are more ancient mediterranean, middle east, etc. But it would upturn a lot that exists in the game, which would more be the problem. But if you put out a book called Western Adventures or Occidental Adventures and based everything around arabic I would not mind at all. Also as a general principle in other fantasy games, this wouldn't bother me at all either. I actually wrote a game called Sertorius and the most prevalent language in that game in terms of place names, is based on Arabic (because I studied Arabic in college and find it an interesting language). I even used the three letter root system to help guide my decisions (so I would invent a name, and then look up the three letter roots and figure out what that city was all about based on the meaning: and sometimes I would work in the opposite direction). It wasn't all arabic. The game also has 'not latin' and 'not greek'. And there is a 'not english' but it is a backwater mired in dark ages

 

[Guest 85555]

Hey, that's gotta be a new record. We've gone from bringing up tiny side issues to completely ignoring real issues, to shifting the goalposts and now we have the "Help I'm being oppressed" cry. All within about four posts. That's impressive. Take a drink!

Yeah, I made the mistake of posting in this thread again thinking that it might be productive. But, nope. Same old song and dance. Shame on me for failing to hit that unsubscribe button. My bad.

Hussar, I have been trying to take your posts seriously and treat you respectfully. Please at least try to paraphrase me correctly. I said I was annoyed, not that I was oppressed. People don't like when others distort their positions on political issues, based on their options about media tropes. Is it oppressive? No. Being deprived of your rights is oppression. Being told you or it being suggested you hold beliefs you don't actually hold, that is simply annoying.

 

[Remathilis]

It is a real problem. Just like the Hays code was a real problem. Some people will agree with the code and happily churn out material within its scope, some will still turn our masterpieces even with the restrictions. Now the code today is more self imposed, sort of how many movies, but not all, became more tame in the 80s (compared to the 70s). Doesn’t mean 80s movies were bad or nonexistent but I don’t think these kinds of constraints are good generally for arts and entertainment

I think creatively the past ten years have been a big challenge for people. I do also think we are thankfully reaching a point where many of these ideas are being challenged and even rejected and that is good (though I also have my concerns about the pendulum swinging too far in a different direction). It does depend on where you are though as POD has opened up the industry to anyone who wants to publish

Also when you start going after fundamentals, like going into dungeons, killing things and taking their stuff, for a lot of people that does make the game harder, less fun etc

People keep saying that creativity is stifled today, but most of the people who say that are comedians who are upset they can't rely on tired cliches about women and minorities for cheap laughs. Which is the problem, isn't it? It's not that you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending people, it's that the things that people found offensive came off as funny to you. (Editorial, not personal you). Ditzy blonde bimbos with big racks and small brains was funny, not demeaning. Homosexual men with heavy lisps were comedy gold! Who couldn't be amused by a Chinese doctor named Won Hung Lo. Can't you take a joke?!

We laughed because the humor was directed at us. White, male, straight, Christian, Middle class, American. The whole of media was made for us. And if you weren't us, well, don't take it to hard, it's just a joke. Or a little fan service to get the guys on board. I mean, how could you take a badass woman fighting off a hoard of inhuman aliens seriously if you didn't get to see her in her panties first?

And market was correcting for that. Did it overcorrect? Probably at times. Was the backlash that followed itself an overcorrection? Absolutely. When you are privileged, equality seems like oppression. But, as you said, the pendulum seems to swinging back at a higher velocity. Which means less people of color in prominent roles, more tokenism, more women reduced to eye candy roles, LGBT erasure, etc. at the rate we're going, slurs might even be back on the menu.

Or maybe we'll take those self-imposed "restrictions" to heart and find new ways to create art. I'm told D&D is best when not every option is on the table, and that curation is a key to creating interesting ideas. Consider this a curation. Do better. Create something new that's out of your comfort zone. And accept that it's all bigger than anyone's personal preferences.

 

[Maxperson]

What do you mean "it was there"? In the books you bought? It's still in them. In your memory? It's still remembered by you.

A new book has been published which doesn't mention it. That hasn't removed the word from anything.

New DMs have the books I bought? They took it away from the game.

 

[Maxperson]

This is the part that I find so frustrating about these conversations.

The amount of revisionism that goes on makes the discussion like punching fog. "Oh, this is a new issue" - no it isn't. "No one is worried about this" - no, YOU aren't bothered by this, but, obviously SOMEONE is bothered, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. "Oh, if we change this word, why aren't we changing that word" - hello slippery slope argument my old friend. "Oh, what about this minor nitpick that is completely missing the entire argument?" Well, maybe if we actually stuck to the issue at hand, it might be a more productive discussion. "Oh, everyone is against me. Poor me. Help, I'm being oppressed!"

It's like the digression about Oriental Adventures. While the title is somewhat of an issue, that's most certainly NOT the actual issue with the book. The ACTUAL issue with the book is that the word "Oriental" is taken to mean "Japan" and Japanese culture and history is overlaid on top of every other Asian culture and history and presented as what it means to adventure in "The Orient".

Which, of course, is utter and complete bollocks. Imagine if WotC did an Occidental Adventures book where every class, every piece of equipment, and a large chunk of the monsters were translated into Arabic. After all, Persia is the source of real culture in Europe isn't it? It's the only culture that matters, no? Those other cultures in Europe? Meh, no one cares about those. We can just overwrite those. No one would possibly complain would they?

Yeah, I think there might be just a couple of ... I dunno... just a hair of disapproval from the fandom if they did this? Maybe? Just a tiny bit.

But overwrite all of China, Korea, Vietnam, and FFS INDIA in favor of a romanticized version of Japan? Oh, yeah, there's no problem at all with that. Totally understandable. Totally acceptable. Why one earth would anyone have any issue with that? After all, only Japan matters right?

I don't know why you think Europe is one culture. It isn't and the individual cultures of Europe are just as overwritten in favor of some romanticized version of the west.

Kara-Tur by the way, has Wa which is Japan, Shou Lung which is China, Malatra which is kinda Malaysia/India, Tabot which is Mongolia, The Northern Wastes which is Russia, and Bawa which would be pacific islanders. I don't see a Korea, but it didn't overwrite as much as you think, not that it did a ton of getting the various cultures right.

 

[Remathilis]

New DMs have the books I bought? They took it away from the game.

They took nothing away from the game. The concept still exists. They renamed it, that's all they did. You are not entitled to the name you prefer, you have no ownership of it.

Honestly,, this reminds me of how a certain online person whom I will not name posted a picture of Elliot Paige Pre-transition with the phrase "remember what they took from you." As if anyone had the right to dictate what name or gender he chose for himself. The person still exists. What you prefer their name be is irrelevant. The concept of a lich soul vessel exists, what you prefer it be called is irrelevant. You are no poorer for any RPG company changing that than you are them changing magic-user to wizard.

 

[Guest 85555]

People keep saying that creativity is stifled today, but most of the people who say that are comedians who are upset they can't rely on tired cliches about women and minorities for cheap laughs. Which is the problem, isn't it? It's not that you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending people, it's that the things that people found offensive came off as funny to you. (Editorial, not personal you). Ditzy blonde bimbos with big racks and small brains was funny, not demeaning. Homosexual men with heavy lisps were comedy gold! Who couldn't be amused by a Chinese doctor named Won Hung Lo. Can't you take a joke?!

For the record, I think comedians who pin their material too much to the cultural moment, are not that funny (whether that is all their material is geared to mocking political correctness or promoting it, or commenting on other comedians who do). I think some who do that can still be funny, but I think it tends to lower the quality of their work (Anthony Jesselnik and Dave Chapelle are both perfect and complimentary examples of that, where both of their recent specials, while funny, were less funny than their earlier work in my opinion because they were spending too much time commenting on our times). Some comedians can do that well, like George Carlin. Chapelle has always commented, but now I feel like I can predict the jokes.

That said, I am not bothered by screw ball 80s comedies either.

We laughed because the humor was directed at us. White, male, straight, Christian, Middle class, American. The whole of media was made for us. And if you weren't us, well, don't take it to hard, it's just a joke. Or a little fan service to get the guys on board.

But that is largely who these concerns are catering too as well. I am not saying go back to doing outrageously offensive stereotype. But I do think this is more about white middle class sensibilities than anything else. And there is polling data that backs that up as well (that these kinds of cultural politeness issues are more a concern of well-to-do white people). I don't think any of that matters though. People have what sensibilities they have. I watch movies with my wife all the time, and she is from another culture. She simply doesn't have these concerns. If something is funny and breaks the tension, she says it. Doesn't mean there is any real meaning behind it. I find this to be true with lots of different people and it is mostly in middle and upper middle class white places where I see the sorts of concerns we are talking about being raised obsessively (people still have concerns outside that space, and have criticisms, but they don't seem nearly as focused on the minutiae of it). And obviously no group is monolithic.

I mean, how could you take a badass woman fighting off a hoard of inhuman aliens seriously if you didn't get to see her in her panties first?

Part of my issue with how stuff like this is talked about is characters like Ripley get downplayed because of the panties. We had bad-ass female characters. That isn't a new thing. I don't think every female character should be like that, just like every male character shouldn't. It is also good to have characters who are vulnerable or who balance strength and vulnerability. I am not particularly interested in aspirational characters (this is why I also have concerns about things swinging the other way, as I am not into either camps view of aspirational media). I want interesting characters. My favorite woman in cinema is Devil Grandma from Magic Blade. She is a terrible human being, who eats people, and I like that about her as a character. I don't want writers to be concerns about the optics when they make a character, I just want them focused on making characters who excited them, that their creativity honestly and genuinely takes them too. That doesn't mean I want something grossly offensive, but I also don't need a vessel for a lecture or lesson about society (sometimes that is okay but I don't need it every time).

I like wuxia and kung Fu movies, and there are a lot of strong female characters in those (especially in the 60s and into early 70s just before the kung fu craze explosion and in the 90s with movies like Wing Chun (which actually has a feminist message, and I think a great movie). I did a whole thread here on Cheng Pei-Pei movies here when she died because she is one of the great cinematic heroines. So I am all for strong heroines. And I am also fine with Ripley in panties too (I think in that case it was more of a decision based on the themes of the movie, but that is a discussion for another day). My favorite wuxia and kung fu movie usually have female leads (I am a big fan for example of Kara Hui films, Angela Mao movies and Michelle Yeoh movies, and Polly Kwan movies always make me laugh).

I also like new strong female leads. I was a big fan of Rey when the Star Wars movies came out. I liked that she was physically believable in the role (she has a very athletic physique that I thought added to the character). I didn't need her to strip or be in panties. She was very convincing because she clearly had been training for the role.

And market was correcting for that. Did it overcorrect? Probably at times. Was the backlash that followed itself an overcorrection? Absolutely. When you are privileged, equality seems like oppression. But, as you said, the pendulum seems to swinging back at a higher velocity. Which means less people of color in prominent roles, more tokenism, more women reduced to eye candy roles, LGBT erasure, etc. at the rate we're going, slurs might even be back on the menu.

I just don't buy this 'equality feels like oppression' line. To be clear, there is nothing oppressive in my opinion about people changing something like phylactery. But I think it is a deeply flawed assumption that things can't go horribly wrong in the other direction. And I think it is too dismissive of legitimate concerns people are raising. Mary Wollstonecraft wrote about the need for striking the write balance when seeking progress and I think she was right. In terms of media, I don't want to exclude anyone. Period.

Or maybe we'll take those self-imposed "restrictions" to heart and find new ways to create art. I'm told D&D is best when not every option is on the table, and that curation is a key to creating interesting ideas. Consider this a curation. Do better. Create something new that's out of your comfort zone. And accept that it's all bigger than anyone's personal preferences.

Or maybe we don't and just go back to making good art and following our intuition and artistic vision. Again, this mantra of 'do better'. It just sounds like moralizing to me. I'd much rather let people make what they make and be more charitable in my reading of it. If something is outrageous, sure, we can complain. But when we are at the David Lister level of calling everything crypto-fascist, I don't think we are actually making anything better