D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[CreamCloud0]

View attachment 396373

You mean something like this?

no, rather the opposite, PF2 (i assume that's what that's from given Mellored's comment) as i understand it everybody has the three action based economy, with different actions costing different numbers of those actions, given all actions in DnD have the same value of a single action, (attacking, casting, dashing, defending, ect..., all usually cost a single action) what im suggesting is the martials getting more actions/bonus actions per round/turn.

to visualize the difference:
Caster action economy (or what all characters currently have)

Action
Move
Bonus Action
Reaction

Proposed martial action economy (or something like it)

Action
Action
Move
Bonus Action
Bonus Action
Reaction

 

[DesRiv]

An easy homebrew solution if you want to nerf spellcasters is to make powerful spells require exotic materials to cast (which are hard to gain) so e.g. they practically can cast high level spells only a limited time (until these are depleted) OR you can introduce a casting failure mechanic - every spell the PC casts, except cantrips and spells below (character level - spell level)/3 rounded down, suffer 25% casting failure. You can also add a penalty for every additional spell cast before long rest. Thus, casters are still powerful but have to be more tactical in choosing the sequence they cast their spell since there is a risk a spell will do nothing (or have its effect reduced).

 

[Clint_L]

How are we possibly discussing FURTHER buffing martial classes in the 2024 rules? Are you guys actually playing the current game?!? Giving martial classes an extra action and bonus action each turn would be utterly busted.

I have a new campaign starting this Saturday, with characters starting at level 3. So far we have a druid, artificer, paladin, barbarian, monk, and rogue, and I am having to radically increase the challenge of every fight because there are so many martial characters.

Let's give some context: that monk currently has a base DPR of 21 at level 3. That's already too strong, IMO, but you give them an extra action and bonus action and it goes up to 42. At level 3. Meanwhile the druid has, what, ray of frost? Ice knife, if they want to spend a spell slot? I don't mind that martial classes have higher DPR and damage mitigation, because casters have more versatility. But casters have to at least feel like they can contribute something before the martial classes blow through the baddies in one round.

Seriously, I want know how many folks proposing buffing martial classes are actually using the 2024 rules. They got buffed! A lot!

 

[CreamCloud0]

How are we possibly discussing FURTHER buffing martial classes in the 2024 rules? Are you guys actually playing the current game?!? Giving martial classes an extra action and bonus action each turn would be utterly busted.

I have a new campaign starting this Saturday, with characters starting at level 3. So far we have a druid, artificer, paladin, barbarian, monk, and rogue, and I am having to radically increase the challenge of every fight because there are so many martial characters.

Let's give some context: that monk currently has a base DPR of 21 at level 3. That's already too strong, IMO, but you give them an extra action and bonus action and it goes up to 42. At level 3. Meanwhile the druid has, what, ray of frost? Ice knife, if they want to spend a spell slot? I don't mind that martial classes have higher DPR and damage mitigation, because casters have more versatility. But casters have to at least feel like they can contribute something before the martial classes blow through the baddies in one round.

Seriously, I want know how many folks proposing buffing martial classes are actually using the 2024 rules. They got buffed! A lot!

but regardless of all that DPR, a martial will still never be casting fly, entangle, invisibility, dominate person, wall of force, and a hundred other spells that warp the gameplay design far more than merely doing alot of damage.

 

[Zardnaar]

but regardless of all that DPR, a martial will still never be casting fly, entangle, invisibility, dominate person, wall of force, and a hundred other spells that warp the gameplay design far more than merely doing alot of damage.

With hit point inflation in 5E Uber damage is still king.

 

[mellored]

Well, you could always get the slots back by multiclassing.

The most important thing it does is truncate their effective spell list to 5th level and below.

Not sure i agree with that.
Warlocks are balanced fine with their limited higher level slots.

There are some top level spells that really should be removed though (simulacrum).

 

[Clint_L]

but regardless of all that DPR, a martial will still never be casting fly, entangle, invisibility, dominate person, wall of force, and a hundred other spells that warp the gameplay design far more than merely doing alot of damage.

No, those don't "warp" gameplay design. Those have always been part of gameplay design. There are a few spells that do: I'll grant that healing word warps gameplay design. But none of the spells you've listed.

Whereas doubling martial class DPR, which is basically what you've suggested, does actually break the game's design. How am I going to run a level 3 combat on Saturday if the barbarian, rogue, monk, and paladin together can easily take down, say, a young dragon in one round? What is the druid player doing, again? Scouting ahead as a spider or something? Except we've got a monk and rogue, so...

And it's not like sub-classes don't exist. If you want some spells to increase the versatility of your martial class, you can get that.

Like I posted above, the versatility of spell casting should have a cost, and there is one: you won't be a primary tank or damage dealer, though there are some ways around that...if you want to sacrifice most of the versatility. But let's not act like martial classes aren't wrecking face with the new rules, because they are.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not sure i agree with that.
Warlocks are balanced fine with their limited higher level slots.

There are some top level spells that really should be removed though (simulacrum).

Simulacrum got nerfed.

 

[ezo]

Simulacrum got nerfed.

Not that it helps in the long run...

Step 1: You have wish and simulacrum prepared. You cast simulacrum to create Simulacrum-A. Rest to get back your 7th-level slot if you want.
Step 2: The Simulacrum-A casts wish to create a simularcum of you. You now have a second, Simulacrum-B.
Step 3: The Simulacrum-B casts wish to create a simulacrum of you. You now have a third, Simulacrum-C.
And so on.

Note: wish allows you to duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower, without material components. The Simulacrums are not casting simulacrum, they are casting wish. Wish does not allow you to "cast" a spell of 8th level or lower, but duplicates it.

Whenever you decide to stop this process, you'll have as many half-HP duplicates of yourself as you want with all the spell slots except 9th for the wish being cast by each.

A simpler nerf would be, regardless of the stat block or classes, a simulacrum cannot cast spells above 7th level.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not that it helps in the long run...

It's mostly an npc spell for me. Should probably go back to something similar to AD&D one