D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Azzy]

Amusingly the answer will be something (unironically) like.

I thought the answer was "it's just an elf game". Or does that only apply to killing orcs?

 

[Bedrockgames]

I do think race/species having modifiers make sense (penalties too). I like my Elves with a DEX bonus because elves should play the harpsichord better than anyone

 

[Scribe]

I thought the answer was "it's just an elf game". Or does that only apply to killing orcs?

That works just as well.

It's why I prefer Shadowdark. A +1 here or there, a special hook or ability? Call it good and roll dice.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Well, at least now you’re being honestly clear in your argument. There is apparently no difference between efforts to make the game more inclusive and less bigoted and efforts by misinformed and misguided evangelicals to remove the game from the public.

Glad we cleared that up.

I didn't say there wasn't a difference. But I think it is entirely possible for well intentioned ideas to be bad and lead to bad outcomes. Wanting a less bigoted world is laudable. Obsessing over language and trying to make tropes like evil orcs off limits, bad, or not in the game, I think doesn't achieve that and just limits peoples enjoyment of the hobby. I am not saying that is identical to what happened in the Satanic Panic. I am saying in the same way I think my parents were well intentioned when they tried to remove D&D books from our house, I think you are well intention in wanting things like Phylactery out of D&D. I am just saying think it makes people bad, just because they are subscribing to an idea I consider to be a bad idea

 

[ezo]

Ah... one down, several to go...

 

[Faolyn]

It is, especially given this response as well.


Wow. Really? Read my posts. I just said I houserule women got advantage on saves vs. disease and to resist pain, as an example.

So, yes, I have. And when I run games with the reduced carry capacity for women (for male drow), I include the other house-rules as well.

And how do the players actually feel about it? (Wait, don't tell me, they're "fine" with it.) How many women are in your game? How many people of any sex play female characters? How many of PCs of any sex play characters specced for weightlifting?

It doesn't need to not be in it, either, so when others consider it--they have guidelines for it.

There's a good reason for this rule to not be in the book: it adds nothing useful and is a dumb idea in a fantasy setting where unusual ancestries are common and the gods may have made women to be just as strong as men, or even stronger. Have you ever considered doing something like that for humans?

 

[Hussar]

. Obsessing over language and trying to make tropes like evil orcs off limits, bad, or not in the game, I think doesn't achieve that and just limits peoples enjoyment of the hobby.

But you have zero evidence of this being true whereas I can point to fifteen different ways that it has increased people’s enjoyment of the hobby. That’s the difference here. You keep making this assertion based solely on you completely unfounded “belief”.

Heck how is that different from pat pulling?

 

[ezo]

And how do the players actually feel about it? (Wait, don't tell me, they're "fine" with it.) How many women are in your game? How many people of any sex play female characters? How many of PCs of any sex play characters specced for weightlifting?

With rhetoric like this do you see why I said there was no point in discussing this with you?

 

[pemerton]

Then WotC is wildly inconsistent, because there are people who have been badly victimized by violence, robbery, murder in the family, etc. and who would also not be likely to warm to a game that has those things in it, yet WotC has yet to remove violence and robbery from the game, or even acknowledge those things as issues that need to be addressed in their game.

Why would WotC not want to make those RPGers feel more comfortable in engaging with their books?

I can't really tell if this is serious or not, but anyway . . .

Most robbery - muggings, house-breaking, etc - is not a political attack upon the being of the victim. This is also true of much interpersonal violence.

There is one category of interpersonal violence that has been widely explained and understood, over the past 60 or so years, as being a type of political attack upon the being of the victim: rape of women by men. I don't think it's coincidence that contemporary mainstream FRPG publications feature much less of this - and certainly much less of it used to titillate - than FRPG publications of the 1970s did.

I think here though, you really have to be careful what you start putting off limits in language and games.

<snip>

You can't just make anything that might upset someone taboo and off limits in art and entertainment

You seem to have mistaken me for a world-government censor.

Savage evil orcs, are something that resonate with a lot of flavor. I think being able to describe orcs in that way does ad something to the game.

Good for you. Go ahead and produce those descriptions - no one is stopping you!

their point seems to be it should be removed from the game because it is a problem.

I haven't said that anything should be removed from anything.

I have identified what seem to be to be reasons why WotC might not want to publish stuff that potential RPGers will experience as racist or alienating or pejorative towards them.

it is entirely possible that many Jewish people would be more aggravated by its removal.

And it's WotC's prerogative to make this judgement call. Isn't it?

To me, it seems that they have made the call that most people really won't give a toss, and that some will feel more comfortable with the association of liches with a Jewish cultural artefact not being included. It's clear that you wish they had made a different call. But you've presented no reason to think that WotC's empirical judgement is wrong. Again, this is why to me you come across as thinking that you are owed something - that you are entitled to have things go your way even if relatively few people would be aggravated by the absence of the word "phylactery" from these new books.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But you have zero evidence of this being true whereas I can point to fifteen different ways that it has increased people’s enjoyment of the hobby. That’s the difference here. You keep making this assertion based solely on you completely unfounded “belief”.

The point of that post wasn't to convince you, but I assure you there is ample evidence of people not enjoying the game and enjoying a lot of media due to changes like this (and I can just say anecdotally it impacts my fun for sure). If you genuinely don't think this is having an impact, I don't know what I can tell you. Because i can at least believe the reverse is true for some people in the other direction (if you have been in these conversations it is clear there are people who like this changes and clear there are people who don't). But again, I don't think you or I are going to convince one another either way at this point. I just wanted to explain what it was I was trying to say with that post because you seemed to think I was equating what you are doing with the Satanic panic

Heck how is that different from pat pulling?

The Satanic Panic was about a lot more than being obsessed with language and getting rid of evil orcs (I don't even think orcs were much on the radar). That said, sure there is some cross over because both are concerned about the influence that media has on people and both seem to take a position that we need to reform or control media in order to better society. And certainly those of us who remember the satanic panic are probably informed by that memory when evaluating these kinds of developments. But the Satanic Panic led to people going to jail who didn't belong in jail. The Satanic Panic led to outrageous and untrue rumors about the hobby. There were just blatant lies being spread about it by people who didn't even understand how the game was played. For example my mother was concerned because a Church friend told her the game led someone she knew to take PCP and fight people with real weapons. There were just crazy things being said. Whereas you are just making the argument that you think the presence of things like phylacteries perpetuates bigotry.