D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Bedrockgames]

Actually, this isn't correct for Gygax's AD&D, which recommends other methods - in the DMG - that will tend to give higher scores.

I think is correct as the default for AD&D 2nd ed.

Yeah, 2E was 3d6 straight down the line, 1E was actually more heroic with 4d6 drop the lowest if I recall as the default. But both had multiple methods too and it was just a question of what the default was

 

[Maxperson]

I guess it depends on how badly you want to argue over the word "enough."

Not very. As I pointed out the line is blurry and no one really knows where it is right now. It can be done, though, which is my point. I expect the line will be clarified in the courts and/or legislature at some point.

 

[Maxperson]

I suspect such an argument could go on for weeks

Not by me. I'll argue that it can be done, but hell if I know where the line of "enough" is.

 

[Parmandur]

Actually, this isn't correct for Gygax's AD&D, which recommends other methods - in the DMG - that will tend to give higher scores.

I think is correct as the default for AD&D 2nd ed.

Ah, I may have my wires crossed: I have read the old books, not played much. And while people tended to cheese in practice, I'm sure, the point does seem to stand thar Gugax envisioned weak Half-Orcs and strong Gnomes coexiating.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, 2E was 3d6 straight down the line, 1E was actually more heroic with 4d6 drop the lowest if I recall as the default. But both had multiple methods too and it was just a question of what the default was

It was not the default in 1e. The default was ask your DM which method from the DMG is being used.

 

[pemerton]

Why are you repeating wild difference? Stronger is stronger. They are not the same when it comes to strength. The difference is only wild at the upper end, which is where PCs tend to end up when playing fighters.

But they are not stronger.

Just to get the numbers clear: of the 206 male Gnomes, 46 have STR of 8 or less, 25 have STR 9, 27 have STR 10, 27 have STR 11, 25 have STR 12, and 56 have STR 13+. In that middle half (104 of 206) the only difference is in (i) the chance to BB/LG, and (ii) an encumbrance limit of 160 lb rather than 150 lb for the upper 25. So the average encumbrance limit for this group is 152.5 lb.

Of the 212 male Half-Orcs, 31 have STR of 8 or less, 21 have STR 9, 25 have STR 10, 27 have STR 11, 27 have STR 12, 25 have STR 12, and 56 have STR 14+. In the middle portion (104 of 212) with STR of 10 to 13, the only difference is in (i) the chance to BB/LG, and (ii) the upper half of that middle portion have an encumbrance limit of 160 lb rather than 150 lb. That's an average of 155 for this group.

For the middle half of both groups, there is no difference in their chance to hit or damage in melee. They have no difference in their chance to open stuck doors. There is a variation of 1% to 4% in an ability that is very rarely used - BB/LG. And there is, for the Half-Orc, an average encumbrance limit of 155 rather than 152.5 lb.

This is why I say the Half-Orcs are not, in any interesting way, stronger. If you need a bar bent, calling on a Half-Orc compared to a Gnome has a reasonable prospect of doubling your chance from almost no chance of success to just about almost no chance of success. And that's it.

 

[Maxperson]

But they are not stronger.

This is objectively wrong. Half-orcs get +1 to strength. Both populations roll the same dice for stats. For every number gnomes roll, the half-orc is 1 stronger. Half-orcs are 5% stronger across the entire population than gnomes.

Just to get the numbers clear: of the 206 male Gnomes, 46 have STR of 8 or less, 25 have STR 9, 27 have STR 10, 27 have STR 11, 25 have STR 12, and 56 have STR 13+. In that middle half (104 of 206) the only difference is in (i) the chance to BB/LG, and (ii) an encumbrance limit of 160 lb rather than 150 lb for the upper 25. So the average encumbrance limit for this group is 152.5 lb.

Of the 212 male Half-Orcs, 31 have STR of 8 or less, 21 have STR 9, 25 have STR 10, 27 have STR 11, 27 have STR 12, 25 have STR 12, and 56 have STR 14+. In the middle portion (104 of 212) with STR of 10 to 13, the only difference is in (i) the chance to BB/LG, and (ii) the upper half of that middle portion have an encumbrance limit of 160 lb rather than 150 lb. That's an average of 155 for this group.

For the middle half of both groups, there is no difference in their chance to hit or damage in melee. They have no difference in their chance to open stuck doors. There is a variation of 1% to 4% in an ability that is very rarely used - BB/LG. And there is, for the Half-Orc, an average encumbrance limit of 155 rather than 152.5 lb.

This is why I say the Half-Orcs are not, in any interesting way, stronger. If you need a bar bent, calling on a Half-Orc compared to a Gnome has a reasonable prospect of doubling your chance from almost no chance of success to just about almost no chance of success. And that's it.

The bolded applies to you. And once you factor in PCs rolling 4d6, which in my experience was nearly universally selected by DMs during 1e and 2e, half-orc fighter PCs are very much stronger than gnome fighter PCs, assuming same numbers rolled.

The fact remains that half-orcs are stronger, whether you find it interesting or not.

 

[pemerton]

This is objectively wrong. Half-orcs get +1 to strength. Both populations roll the same dice for stats. For every number gnomes roll, the half-orc is 1 stronger.

You are ignoring the game rules - in particular the table for STR.

If the median male Half-Orc has the same chance as the median male Gnome to hit and damage in melee and to open stuck doors; has only a 2.5 lb, or so, greater carrying capacity (less than a 2% increase on 150 lb); and still has only an utterly negligible chance to BB/LG, then how are they stronger?

What feat of strength can the Half-Orc perform that the Gnome cannot?

 

[Maxperson]

ou are ignoring the game rules - in particular the table for STR.

No I am not. You are.

For every gnome that rolls a 7, there is an orc with an 8(with the +1). That half-orc gains an increase. For every gnome that rolls a 9(with the +1), there is a half-orc that rolls a 10(with the +1) and has the increase. For every gnome that rolls an 11, there is a half-orc that gets a 12 with the +1 and has an increase. It only gets more lopsided from there.

With 3d6 straight, 37.46% of halflings have a strength of 12+(where the carrying capacity really starts increasing). With 3d6 straight 49.96%(pretty much half) of half-orcs have a strength of 12+. That's a significant difference.

The disparity only becomes worse with 4d6-L, the most commonly used method for rolling AD&D stats. The average numbers skew higher, so the +1 for half-orcs becomes even more noticeable.

 

[pemerton]

No I am not. You are.

For every gnome that rolls a 7, there is an orc with an 8(with the +1). That half-orc gains an increase. For every gnome that rolls a 9(with the +1), there is a half-orc that rolls a 10(with the +1) and has the increase. For every gnome that rolls an 11, there is a half-orc that gets a 12 with the +1 and has an increase. It only gets more lopsided from there.

With 3d6 straight, 37.46% of halflings have a strength of 12+(where the carrying capacity really starts increasing). With 3d6 straight 49.96%(pretty much half) of half-orcs have a strength of 12+. That's a significant difference.

The disparity only becomes worse with 4d6-L, the most commonly used method for rolling AD&D stats. The average numbers skew higher, so the +1 for half-orcs becomes even more noticeable.

I can do the maths. My posts set out the population distribution.

In AD&D, STR 11 is not stronger than STR 10. STR 13 is not stronger than STR 12. And the only way in which STR 11 is stronger than STR 9 is a doubling of BB/LG (from 1% to 2%).

So the fact that for every Gnome of STR 10 there is a Half-Orc of STR 11 is not relevant to showing that the Half-Orcs are actually stronger.