D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[GrimCo]

In essence, martials don't need buffing in classic sense. They need more cool stuff to do. Yes, your high tier 3 and tier 4 fighter can tank and dish out damage. To one opponent. While his compadre wizards calls meteor rain on battlefield. Give them whirlwind attacks, leaping attacks, stuff like that. Stuff that looks like it came from God of War and Diablo. Give them stuff that forces opponents to attack them ( in game terms, give them aggro abilities).

 

[aiouh]

no, rather the opposite, PF2 (i assume that's what that's from given Mellored's comment) as i understand it everybody has the three action based economy, with different actions costing different numbers of those actions, given all actions in DnD have the same value of a single action, (attacking, casting, dashing, defending, ect..., all usually cost a single action) what im suggesting is the martials getting more actions/bonus actions per round/turn.

to visualize the difference:
Caster action economy (or what all characters currently have)


Proposed martial action economy (or something like it)

Most combat spells worth using spell slots for are 2-3 action, so martials have "bonus" actions as striking is only 1 action and there is a multiple attack penalty (which makes multiple striking usually not very good, unless the opponents are trash mobs). What you are proposing is very similar to how PF2e gives Martials more agency, utility and "influence" without making casters weaker.

This is not to start a PF2e vs. DnD argument, just saying Paizo has already done a very similar thing to the action economy in service to making Martials feel more fun.

 

[M_Natas]

I have fundamental problems with 5E, and I wish martials could participate in the cool stuff, but the easiest 'fix' (ie, avoid spellcasters running roughshod over your campaign) to the martial/spellcaster disparity without breaking the bank is just to use multiple encounters per Long Rest.

Just link encounters; have the orc ambush lead directly into a second encounter with the orc captain.

Something like this.

5e in 2024 is essentially the same as 5e in 2014. While there have been some tweaks to the classes over time, the underlying design principles remain unchanged. The game’s balance hinges on the number of encounters/rounds of combat, and resource-draining actions (like using up spell slots) that occur between long rests. If you have fewer than about 10 rounds of battle between long rests, full casters (with the exception of warlocks) tend to outshine everyone else. Conversely, when battles extend beyond 20 rounds, martial characters and those who recover resources on a short rest begin to pull ahead. There’s a narrow sweet spot around 10 to 20 rounds where casters and martials are relatively balanced in their damage output.

At the core of this issue is the fixed “8-hour long rest” mechanic, which restores all hit points and spell slots. Because this full recovery is available, the optimal strategy for many groups becomes taking a long rest as soon as the casters have expended their best resources. In practice, at many tables, combat is played in short bursts—often fewer than 10 rounds—with extended battles being the exception rather than the norm. Moreover, outside of dungeon delving or other fringe scenarios, having 6 to 8 combat encounters in the span of 24 hours doesn’t fit many adventures; it would feel unrealistic and quickly become a drag.

To address this imbalance, Wizards of the Coast would have to fundamentally change the resting mechanic—a change that would require a complete overhaul of the classes, effectively resulting in a new edition of the game.
Reducing the number of spell slots Casters have would just lead to even more pressure to take a long rest.

In the meantime, here are a few potential quick fixes:

1. No or Minimal Resource Regeneration: Instead of regaining everything after a long rest, characters could recover only a small amount of hit points and perhaps one of their lowest-level spell slots. Healing and resource recovery would then rely on consumable items like potions. This approach gives the DM the flexibility to balance the game on the fly—for example, reducing the number of mana potions if casters are too powerful, or limiting healing options if martial characters become dominant.
2. Gradual Resource Replenishment: Implement a system where resources return gradually rather than all at once. This “gradual gritty realism” system (my own creation) allows for more nuanced resource management and can lead to a more balanced experience. You can check out the rules here: Gradual Gritty Realism Resting rules (English and German / Deutsch und Englisch) - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild.
3. Adopt the 2014 Gritty Rest Rules: In this variant, a long rest can last up to 7 days. This quick-fix approach forces players to manage their resources carefully throughout an adventure, as a long rest becomes a significant event that typically marks the conclusion of an adventure rather than a routine reset during play. It essentially limits most adventures to one adventuring day—the time between two long rests—requiring more strategic planning and resource management.

 

[Horwath]

1. Adopt the 2014 Gritty Rest Rules: In this variant, a long rest can last up to 7 days. This quick-fix approach forces players to manage their resources carefully throughout an adventure, as a long rest becomes a significant event that typically marks the conclusion of an adventure rather than a routine reset during play. It essentially limits most adventures to one adventuring day—the time between two long rests—requiring more strategic planning and resource management.

this is just a narrative decorative solution, only thing this does is turn 5 min work day into 5 min work week.

 

[aiouh]

this is just a narrative decorative solution, only thing this does is turn 5 min work day into 5 min work week.

I think that rest assumes that either adventures have a sense of urgency (dwindling rations, evil progressing in their plans) built in or that you don't handwave away dangerous encounters if you rest somewhere non-safe. Mind you that you only recover HP at the END of a Long Rest.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

@KentHusker Don't smiley spam like a coward. If you want to laugh at me, do it in a post.

this is just a narrative decorative solution, only thing this does is turn 5 min work day into 5 min work week.

No I'm sure it'll actually help.

If you have a non-dungeon campaign you can have a sequence of events like this:

1. Players arrive at Waterdeep
2. They fight bandits in an alley
3. Next day they track down a clue, and end up fighting a group of assassins
4. They follow the trail of the assassins and discovery their base where they encounter their leader

Etc. etc.

That's typical stuff that can happen. The thing is, in 5E there'd be a long rest between each of those encounters, meaning that casters can nova every day.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I really don't love the idea of buffing PC things in 5e even further
Ideally they'd be brought down in power.. but my 5e bother is PCs punching so high above their weight class, so ofc I want to avoid buffing to balance.

A PC's "weight class" is a set of numbers on a page compared to another page with a different set of numbers. Erase a number on the second page, the one next to "CR", and replace it with a lower number. Ta-da. We just got a new set of scales.

Encounter balancing is always something of an arcane art. Do the game designers and the players/dms enjoy the same level of difficulty? Are the assumptions on relative effectiveness between creature abilities and PC abilities valid? Are they predicated on a certain level of finesse in implementation by player/DM? Are they materially impacted by pacing or sequencing? Are DMs made aware of those factors and given guidelines to adjust accordingly?

Milestone leveling is effectively a way GMs can communicate to players "don't bother doing monster/xp math, this is my own thing". A GM who is, relatively, a tactical genius may throw monsters -2CR at players. One who is outclassed by their players, or constantly forgets monster abilities, or who gave out too much loot, may use +2CR challenges.

 

[M_Natas]

this is just a narrative decorative solution, only thing this does is turn 5 min work day into 5 min work week.

It is not ideal, but narrativly, a one week rest would end most adventures, because like most adventures have some kind of urgency where waiting a week would end it or make it worse. At the same time, a lot of adventures are not so urgent, that you can't wait 8 hours.
I'm also not a big fan of the 2014 gritty realism rules, that why I made up my own gradual realism gritty rest rules, but they help balance the game better than the normal rest rules.

 

[Horwath]

It is not ideal, but narrativly, a one week rest would end most adventures, because like most adventures have some kind of urgency where waiting a week would end it or make it worse. At the same time, a lot of adventures are not so urgent, that you can't wait 8 hours.
I'm also not a big fan of the 2014 gritty realism rules, that why I made up my own gradual realism gritty rest rules, but they help balance the game better than the normal rest rules.

In general, pace of rest is a "gentleman's agreement" between DM and the players.
DM needs to know when to give players a brake and players need to trust DM that the job is well done and not be crybabies and rest when full casters are at 80% of spell slots.

alternative is DM is just nuking the campaign when players decide to rest?
that is also not good game play.

if players want to take many Long rests, just throw Deadly++ encounters at them and probably Deadly surprise when the take a rest.

 

[Eubani]

I have time and again seen number of slots brought up as a way to control spellcaster advantages in power and utility. BUT how about using Spell Schools as a control mechanism. Limiting access to 2-3 schools at level one and gaining access to further schools as the character levels up.

To delve further into spell school control would be the idea of minor and major access ie minor access being spell levels 1-4 and major access 6-8. Even this can be further manipulated by changing the level spread or introducing an intermediate access.