D&D (2024) Youre All Wrong. Its Not A Martial vs Caster Situation

[Zardnaar]

Funny thing:

A fireball alone is not fantastic. But having 5 casters starting with fireball has a significant chance of ending a fight before it really begins.

Lets assume 3 go through. 2 are saved against. That is 32d6 damage (average 112) right away.

Enough to really soften up the opposition quite heavily.

I still think you are correct. The game is better if casters and non casters synergize. And in that case, starting out with fireball is not the best option often enough. But if you are an evoker or sorcerer, you can finish an encounter with fireball very well.

Or a controller uses 1 spell and martial mops up.

5 spells to kill CR1-4 CR5+ might survive that.

 

[ECMO3]

In all these discussions, one thing I find notable is that I see a lot of martials in play, but I see very few non-casters.

Even the Fighters and Rogues are usually sporting some spells from something, maybe 1 in 10 PCs is actually a non-caster.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Or a controller uses 1 spell and martial mops up.

5 spells to kill CR1-4 CR5+ might survive that.

If the spell sticks. But this is basically what I said. An option. But a mixed party is more successful.

 

[TheSword]

In all these discussions, one thing I find notable is that I see a lot of martials in play, but I see very few non-casters.

Even the Fighters and Rogues are usually sporting some spells from something, maybe 1 in 10 PCs is actually a non-caster.

So? A spell is just a unit of magical jiggery pokery? Do you honestly think a level 1 slot or two meaningfully changes a class?

 

[ECMO3]

So? A spell is just a unit of magical jiggery pokery? Do you honestly think a level 1 slot or two meaningfully changes a class?

I think someone who casts spells is a caster.

I also think across levels 1-20, a Paladin is the highest damage caster at the largest numbers of levels, despite also being a martial.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think someone who casts spells is a caster.

I also think across levels 1-20, a Paladin is the highest damage caster at the largest numbers of levels, despite also being a martial.

Old paladin not sure about new one. Higher levels its good lower down it's the barbarian. Fighters very consistent across 1-20. Top 3 right through iirc.

High dex fighter with criminal origin or Thieves tool proficiency should be useful.

 

[TheSword]

I think someone who casts spells is a caster.

I also think across levels 1-20, a Paladin is the highest damage caster at the largest numbers of levels, despite also being a martial.

You don’t see a problem with the concept that the highest damage caster is someone who almost never casts spells? If the character doesn’t cast spells do any of the other arguments around casters actually matter?

 

[ECMO3]

Old paladin not sure about new one. Higher levels its good lower down it's the barbarian. Fighters very consistent across 1-20. Top 3 right through iirc.

To be clear I said Paladin was the highest damaging caster at the largest number of levels from 1-20.

Take all the other 2024 casters (Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Bard, Sorcerer) and go through each one of them for every level starting with level 1 and ending with level 20 and I think the new 2024 Paladin will be the highest damage at more of those levels than any of those other classes. That is what I said and I stand by it.

If you throw non-casters into that I am confident Paladin would be ahead of Monk and Rogue, but I am not as confident they would be ahead of Fighter or Barbarian.

 

[ECMO3]

You don’t see a problem with the concept that the highest damage caster is someone who almost never casts spells? If the character doesn’t cast spells do any of the other arguments around casters actually matter?

No I don't see a problem with.

 

[TheSword]

No I don't see a problem with.

Ok. That’s fine. Then you have an ideological issue with casters rather than a practical one, and that’s of no interest to me.

Having an issue with class balance because a fighter can take magic initiate to turn them into a caster rather than a martial seems to me to miss the point of classes.

That’s ok though, because WotC is making a game that frankly doesn’t care about these ideological issues,