Kichwas
Half-breed
Being a Pathfinder 2E player/GM and NOT a DnD 5.5 player/GM I often see this exact same discussion, but in the opposite direction. Over in my game we have the balance problem being casters are often seen as too weak.
I think both games having the same problem but from opposite sides of the swing shows that it's the swing itself that is at issue - how magic works in these games based on daily slots.
The problem with any daily slot system is you need to make 'this spell' worth it despite only getting 'x uses a day', and then once you're a little higher level that same spell can become a balance issue. You can tune the spell for when it's available only once or twice a day or down for when it's around often.
And after 50 years of this no one has found the goldilocks zone.
The solution is present in both games in a limited form. Cantrips and Pathfinder's focus spells, or maybe DnD Paladin's lay on hands.
- these all hint at different ways of tracking the resource in attempt to track it at the speed of gameplay rather than at the speed of downtime.
I've got the DnD 5.5 PHB, but have only scanned it as I don't expect to ever play DnD 5.5E, so my best analogy for a solution comes from the Pathfinder 2.5 (remaster) alchemist. They have what amounts to a small number of daily slots, a medium number of 'recharge in short rests' slots, and then a spamable attack.
The spam attack is just a plain attack, that their 'subclass' alters. For the healer subclass it can be used as a heal every X-minutes, for the other subclasses it does something fitting the theme.
The 'short rest' recoverables are the key here. MOST of the class abilities come in through here. They get a pool of X charges, and can burn them on ANYTHING the class has unlocked, as fast as they want. They then get back 2 charges per 10 minutes (the pathfinder version of a short rest - except this class gets them back without needing to rest, other 'focus' classes in pathfinder do an activity that is similar to a DnD short rest).
The daily pool then can get used for the same things, but is gone until a long rest. As a result, players will use that pool for 'oddball things', and the short-rest pool for the stuff that works with most gameplay.
How would this solve the caster / martial problem?
Well, the game designers can now balance around a time frame for casters that is nearly the same as for martials. So a 'fireball' in the short rest pool would be able to be balanced to be just as potent as some special fighter attack at that same level. It wouldn't need to be more potent as an offset of having less uses.
That would then enable the designers to tune things to match power, but with different kinds of actions (as on: avoid the DnD 4E 'sameness' problem).
A solution like this though, would be a major overhaul for a potential DnD 6E or pathfinder 3E... as every single spell in the game(s) would need a rewrite to work around being balanced to be tracked as a resource at the speed of gameplay.
The resulting system would likely be rejected by players as too different. But it'd solve this 50 year old topic.
I think both games having the same problem but from opposite sides of the swing shows that it's the swing itself that is at issue - how magic works in these games based on daily slots.
The problem with any daily slot system is you need to make 'this spell' worth it despite only getting 'x uses a day', and then once you're a little higher level that same spell can become a balance issue. You can tune the spell for when it's available only once or twice a day or down for when it's around often.
And after 50 years of this no one has found the goldilocks zone.
The solution is present in both games in a limited form. Cantrips and Pathfinder's focus spells, or maybe DnD Paladin's lay on hands.
- these all hint at different ways of tracking the resource in attempt to track it at the speed of gameplay rather than at the speed of downtime.
I've got the DnD 5.5 PHB, but have only scanned it as I don't expect to ever play DnD 5.5E, so my best analogy for a solution comes from the Pathfinder 2.5 (remaster) alchemist. They have what amounts to a small number of daily slots, a medium number of 'recharge in short rests' slots, and then a spamable attack.
The spam attack is just a plain attack, that their 'subclass' alters. For the healer subclass it can be used as a heal every X-minutes, for the other subclasses it does something fitting the theme.
The 'short rest' recoverables are the key here. MOST of the class abilities come in through here. They get a pool of X charges, and can burn them on ANYTHING the class has unlocked, as fast as they want. They then get back 2 charges per 10 minutes (the pathfinder version of a short rest - except this class gets them back without needing to rest, other 'focus' classes in pathfinder do an activity that is similar to a DnD short rest).
The daily pool then can get used for the same things, but is gone until a long rest. As a result, players will use that pool for 'oddball things', and the short-rest pool for the stuff that works with most gameplay.
How would this solve the caster / martial problem?
Well, the game designers can now balance around a time frame for casters that is nearly the same as for martials. So a 'fireball' in the short rest pool would be able to be balanced to be just as potent as some special fighter attack at that same level. It wouldn't need to be more potent as an offset of having less uses.
That would then enable the designers to tune things to match power, but with different kinds of actions (as on: avoid the DnD 4E 'sameness' problem).
A solution like this though, would be a major overhaul for a potential DnD 6E or pathfinder 3E... as every single spell in the game(s) would need a rewrite to work around being balanced to be tracked as a resource at the speed of gameplay.
The resulting system would likely be rejected by players as too different. But it'd solve this 50 year old topic.
