D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Imaro]

Right, but if it doesn’t end when an enemy looks at you, neither must the invisible condition when granted by the Hide action, since it doesn’t say otherwise. Again, this is very obviously not intended, but it is what the rules literally say (or rather, don’t say).

So you want an explicit list of all the ways a hidden person could be discovered?

 

[Charlaquin]

YES. Because that is literally what the rules say.

I mean… I agree that the rules literally say something different than that magic makes you impossible to find by looking at you and hiding doesn’t… but I think that’s a bad thing. They should say that magic makes you impossible to find by looking at you and hiding doesn’t.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't think you need a "condition" at all, but if you must have one, use "Hidden."

Hidden (condition): A hidden creature is out of line of sight of another creature. When a creature is Hidden to another creature, it gains advantage on attack rolls and the creature(s) it is hidden against have disadvantage when attacking it. A Hidden creature cannot be targeted by a spell or effect that requires sight by a creature that it is Hidden against..

Remove the nonsense "Invisible" condition and 90% of the already nonsense complaints go away.

This doesn’t fix the problem, because it still doesn’t say that a Hidden creature stops being hidden when an enemy looks at it with its normal eyeballs.

 

[Charlaquin]

So you want an explicit list of all the ways a hidden person could be discovered?

No, I want the rules for hiding to say you stop being “invisible” if you stop being in a position from which enemies can’t see you.

 

[Parmandur]

No, I want the rules for hiding to say you stop being hidden if a creature can see you clearly.

Well, the rules are not that granular in D&D: a creature "clearly seeing you" are the narrated results of a Stralyh-Peeceprion contest. This is fuzzy in theory, easy in practice based on the past decade of experience. Same as moat action resolution in the system. Detailed narration follows abstract d20 Test.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, the rules are not that granular in D&D: a creature "clearly seeing you" are the narrated results of a Stralyh-Peeceprion contest. This is fuzzy in theory, easy in practice based on the past decade of experience. Same as moat action resolution in the system. Detailed narration follows abstract d20 Test.

Jeez, you’re quick lol. I rephrased the post, you should take a look at the edited version. Anyway, in the original version you quoted I was using the “clearly see you” wording because that’s what 2014 uses. So, yeah, sometimes D&D is that granular.

 

[Reynard]

This doesn’t fix the problem, because it still doesn’t say that a Hidden creature stops being hidden when an enemy looks at it with its normal eyeballs.

The condition doesn't need to say that and should not say that. When, whether and how the condition applies is independent of the definition of the condition. i think that may be our disconnect.

This is among the reasons why I don't think conditions is the right way to do this. just use simple, declarative language.

"If a character makes a successful Hide check against another creature's Passive Perception, the hiding character cannot be targeted by spells or abilities require sight. The hiding character has advantage on attack rolls against creature sit is hidden from, and creatures it is hidden from, if somehow allowed an attack, have disadvantage on the attack roll. A character that is hidden against another creature is no longer hidden after it attacks, casts a spell with a verbal component, or moves into that creature's lines of sight."

Note that the above assumes definitions of things like line of sight, concealment, cover, and how those things impact that Hide roll.

 

[Parmandur]

No, I want the rules for hiding to say you stop being “invisible” if you stop being in a position from which enemies can’t see you.

I think the lack of clarity there is to allow for d20ntests to determine stuff like facing, the NPC suddenly needing to tie their shoes, etc. in response to the rolled results.

 

[Parmandur]

Jeez, you’re quick lol.

Yeah, sorry, I am an extremely fast reader and writer: that's part of why my spelling is so awful sometimes (plus large thumbs), just dashing off quick thoughts usually.

 

[mamba]

It works the same as any other Skill based activity, DM rulings and d20 tests assigned as make sense, same as it ever was.

that is not a good excuse for a poor description though. Just because everything can be fixed / decided by the DM does not excuse the rules from being well thought out