D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Charlaquin]

I don't know -- we argued about those rules here A LOT too.

Indeed, which is why I said they weren’t perfect. But they were better. Significantly so, since they didn’t imply hiding made you completely disappear.

 

[MerricB]

I don't know -- we argued about those rules here A LOT too.

They were better in some aspects, and worse in others.

And as I noted earlier in the thread, there were some abilities (the wood elf's) that made me think that perhaps they originally were more like the 2024 ones and then changed to what we had. Part of my problem with the 2024 rules is just where they are in the books...

I'm still not entirely sure how passive Perception ties into all of this.

Have a look at my post from a little earlier today (#134) and think about how you'd answer all those situations and where the rules are that you'd apply. I think it's an interesting exercise which helps people understand exactly how the rules work.

 

[Sorinth]

Personally I think the idea that leaving it up to the DM to adjudicate whether it's possible or not is the right approach. There's just to many edge/corner cases for the rules to handle well.

The big failing is that the DMG should have spent a few pages going over if not how to make those rulings at least how the rulings impact gameplay. It's not even like there is a right or wrong interpretation, but a strict way of ruling provides a very different game compared to a loose rulings, and that needs to be an intentional choice.

 

[Zaukrie]

I didn't know if @mearls wants to read the whole thread, but his Patreon discussed this.... And he has thoughts

 

[Imaro]

No, I want the rules for hiding to say you stop being “invisible” if you stop being in a position from which enemies can’t see you.

What about other ways of detection outside of sight? You see once you make that the explicit way of loosing said condition... the arguments will then revolve around it only referencing being seen as opposed to any other way one could be detected.

 

[Baron Opal II]

But… why is the character rolling stealth when there are no creatures around? Who are they hiding from? If they’re hiding in anticipation of enemies approaching (eg to set up an ambush) how is that not interesting, nor have consequences of failure?

I don’t understand.

One example I've seen is the radio room scene from Where Eagle's Dare. The spy climbs a wooden stair to a new floor, sets a case down, walks down a hallway pst a T-intersection, and ito a radio room to stab the radio operator.

Potential stealth needs are arrival on the landing, passing by the intersection, and crossing the radio room. Some people would want rolls at those places to heighten tension during crossing those spaces even though there's only on target on the floor. The PC doesn't know that.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

One example I've seen is the radio room scene from Where Eagle's Dare. The spy climbs a wooden stair to a new floor, sets a case down, walks down a hallway pst a T-intersection, and ito a radio room to stab the radio operator.

Potential stealth needs are arrival on the landing, passing by the intersection, and crossing the radio room. Some people would want rolls at those places to heighten tension during crossing those spaces even though there's only on target on the floor. The PC doesn't know that.

Yes, if there’s a a chance to succeed or fail and there’s a meaningful consequence for failure at each of those points then, sure, ask for the ability check roll. Otherwise, the PC automatically succeeds at what they’re doing until the roll is warranted.

 

[Charlaquin]

What about other ways of detection outside of sight? You see once you make that the explicit way of loosing said condition... the arguments will then revolve around it only referencing being seen as opposed to any other way one could be detected.

It does reference other means of detection - attacking, casting a spell with a verbal component, and making sound louder than a whisper.

 

[mearls]

I didn't know if @mearls wants to read the whole thread, but his Patreon discussed this.... And he has thoughts

A bunch!

But to be concise, I think stealth should be a function of the environment, mixed with the DM's assessment of how attentive a creature is.

In short:

• Obscurement should limit how far a creature can see, say 10 feet for light and 5 feet for heavy. I'm still playing with this and might just give one type of obscurement that limits sight to 5 feet.
  • If a creature can't see you, or if you have cover or more, you can try hiding
• Dim light and darkness allow hiding
  • Darkvision treats darkness as dim light
• A hiding creature that breaks stealth on its turn remains hidden until the end of the turn, but can't hide again that turn
• Rogues and other stealth characters can break these rules

I'm also thinking of giving a basic rule of thumb for DMs: Creatures default to inattentive, and by default they don't try to find hiding creatures. You lose stealth to them only if you interact with them or blow a check. Attentive creatures exert their passive Perception in a 30-foot radius to find hiding creatures, and losing stealth in their line of sight means they find you.

I might enshrine that as a rule, and for dungeon exploration set "pay attention" as an option that lets PCs exert their passive Perception. If you search for secret doors or cast a ritual, you're too distracted to pick up a hiding creature in passing.

 

[abirdcall]

One example I've seen is the radio room scene from Where Eagle's Dare. The spy climbs a wooden stair to a new floor, sets a case down, walks down a hallway pst a T-intersection, and ito a radio room to stab the radio operator.

Potential stealth needs are arrival on the landing, passing by the intersection, and crossing the radio room. Some people would want rolls at those places to heighten tension during crossing those spaces even though there's only on target on the floor. The PC doesn't know that.

The important part here is not knowing whether there is only 1 target but what narratively constitutes a success.

A successful roll should result in a success in the narrative. Just 1 roll (or 1 roll per player for group checks).

Extended challenges where multiple rolls are required are exceptions but each success should still have narrative weight.

In this example requiring multiple rolls actually deflates the tension as each roll doesn't have the impact 1 would when playing as I've just described.