D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[ezo]

Serious side question: why the DC 15 for the check?

 

[kayakingpoodle]

Was included in which: Hide, the Invisible condition, or the Invisible spell??

Because, as I stated upthread (SHOCKER!!! ), I already acknowledged it would be better to put it with the spell...


No, it gives you the Invisisble condition... which is the problem, because you are concealed and cannot be "seen" (apparently) unless someone can somehow see you...

And even if they can see you, the condition doesn't end apparently and they still have disadvantage to attack you, etc.


If only it was worded that way and more clearly...


Maybe a bit, but I'll admit I am more playing Devil's Advocate in all this by being more "obtuse" than I am.

Hiding gives you the condition Invisible while you're hidden, it does not make you invisible like the spell does.

If you Hide you are "invisible" until someone sees you. You do not become invisible without magic.

The enemy does not need to "look" for you if they can see you, i.e.not actually obscured. You can move from cover to cover if they aren't looking at you. It is Hide and seek.

 

[Charlaquin]

If the way you are using a rule works for you; go forth and be merry.

The way the rule is written does not work for me. I am trying to express why it doesn’t.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

Serious side question: why the DC 15 for the check?

To set the DC for the perception check for the enemy to end the condition.

 

[Imaro]

I'll answer your question with a question of my own: in 5E how do you "find" something?

I'll concede to your interpretation as it's actually something I've been mulling about in this discussion, I think as long as you are successfully hiding a Wis(perception) check is necessary to find you... however I don't concede that if character A hides behind a rock, then character B looks behind said rock, character B needs to make a check to "find" him... as he is no longer hidden.

The stealth skill states it allows one to...Escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things. Which supports my initial assertion that one cannot simply walk out into the open (line of sight) and still utilize stealth. If character B looks behind that rock you are no longer able to use stealth to hide

 

[ezo]

Hiding gives you the condition Invisible while you're hidden, it does not make you invisible like the spell does.

It seems to, with the exception that the Invisible condition granted by the Hide action can end if an enemy finds you.

If you Hide you are "invisible" until someone sees you. You do not become invisible without magic.

Right.

The enemy does not need to "look" for you if they can see you, i.e.not actually obscured. You can move from cover to cover if they aren't looking at you. It is Hide and seek.

Ah, but there's another issue. If you move from cover to cover, you are exposed and if you can see the enemy, it can see you, in which case you no longer have the Invisible condition.

The problem lies in 5E that there is no "facing". A creature's line of sight is all around them.

As soon as you step out from cover, you are in fact seen.

To set the DC for the perception check for the enemy to end the condition.

No, the total sets the DC, which is why you must make note of it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hiding gives you the condition Invisible while you're hidden, it does not make you invisible like the spell does.

If you Hide you are "invisible" until someone sees you. You do not become invisible without magic.

The enemy does not need to "look" for you if they can see you, i.e.not actually obscured. You can move from cover to cover if they aren't looking at you. It is Hide and seek.

Nothing about the invisible spell makes enemies not able to see you.

There might actually be a decent case that hiding as written is fine and invisibility is screwed up.

 

[Imaro]

Nothing about the invisible spell makes enemies not able to see you.

Ok then I've got to ask... Why can't enemies target someone who has had the invisibility spell cast on them with any effects that rely on sight?

 

[KYRON45]

The way the rule is written does not work for me. I am trying to express why it doesn’t.

I'm saying, write it so it does, and then use that version.
Unless you are a player and the DM doesn't agree with you. In which case you are powerless.
It is at this point you embrace your powerlessness and bend the knee to the DM and his ruling.

Now you're going to say....but i bought a book!!!! To which i'm going to reply, so did 20 million other people (no i do not have a source) and they seem to be ok with knowing either a. how the rule is meant to work, or b. using their version of the rule.

When i DM and a player says i'm hiding behind the plant stand...i say, good for you and i move on. We both know he's not invisible and it's only a matter of time before he's found or needs to move.

This is a fun conversation.

 

[ezo]

I'll concede to your interpretation as it's actually something I've been mulling about in this discussion,

Me, too!

I think as long as you are successfully hiding a Wis(perception) check is necessary to find you... however I don't concede that if character A hides behind a rock, then character B looks behind said rock, character B needs to make a check to "find" him... as he is no longer hidden.

(bolded) or Passive Perception, correct?

While I agree that makes sense, it isn't what the rules stipulate:

1. You Hide and gain the Invisible condition.
2. An effect of the Invisible condition is you are concealed.
3. A Wisdom (Perception) check is required to locate a concealed creature or object.

#3 (IMO) means either the Passive Perception has to beat the Stealth total OR the creature would have to take the Search action and roll Wisdom (Perception) to find them. Otherwise, they remain concealed and "Invisible".

The stealth skill states it allows one to...Escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things. Which supports my initial assertion that one cannot simply walk out into the open (line of sight) and still utilize stealth. If character B looks behind that rock you are no longer able to use stealth to hide

Note I bolded a different phrase. Although 5E does not deal with "facing", if I am moving behind someone, I should not be in their line of sight (technically by 5E I am, however...). Regardless, my Hide action is to move quietly so I can approach the target to attack or whatever. Their Perception, in this case, is to hear me, not see me.

I'm saying, write it so it does, and then use that version.

I think the goal (for myself anyway) and others in this thread (and other threads) is to do just that.

This is a fun conversation.

I concur!