D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[kayakingpoodle]

Again, there is no facing in 5E so therefore no "field" (cone plus peripheral) of sight. A creature can establish Line of Sight all around them. Maybe this will help:

View attachment 397020
A sentry is standing in a clearing (why? no clue... not important) in Bright Light. Rogue A, B, and C all have Heavy Obscurment in very thick woods. Each is trying to move from their position across an opening to other Heavy Obscurement. There is no facing in 5E, so the sentry has Line of Sight on A (white line), B (yellow line), and C (red line).

From your PoV, he will see A, maybe B depending on how good his peripheral vision is, but not C because he is "behind the sentry". While I agree with you that is how it should work and would if 5E used facing, it doesn't. So, he will see all three.

Now, ToM, the DM can simply tell the player of Rogue C, "He is looking away from your position" and deny Line of Sight I suppose. But he could just as easily say the sentry is occasionally turning to look behind himself so might see Rogue C.

A sentry is actively looking for threats in all directions, they don't see all of those points at the same time, unless it is a trait or magic.

How does flanking work if the NPC' don't use facing?

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok then I've got to ask... Why can't enemies target someone who has had the invisibility spell cast on them with any effects that rely on sight?

They can be targeted so long as the opposed creature can somehow see them. That’s from the invisible condition which the invisibility spell grants. Specifically the concealed section.

More importantly and to my original point, the invisibility spell itself isn’t doing that. It’s just providing the invisible condition which doesn’t prevent you from being seen whenever an enemy can somehow see you.

 

[ezo]

A sentry is actively looking for threats in all directions, they don't see all of those points at the same time, unless it is a trait or magic.

Sure, but by the rules of the game, it doesn't matter. The fact is you can establish Line of Sight to all three Rogues while they are moving positions so they are seen.

How does flanking work if the NPC' don't use facing?

As far as I know, it isn't in 2024.

 

[Selas]

Again, there is no facing in 5E so therefore no "field" (cone plus peripheral) of sight. A creature can establish Line of Sight all around them. Maybe this will help:

View attachment 397020
A sentry is standing in a clearing (why? no clue... not important) in Bright Light. Rogue A, B, and C all have Heavy Obscurment in very thick woods. Each is trying to move from their position across an opening to other Heavy Obscurement. There is no facing in 5E, so the sentry has Line of Sight on A (white line), B (yellow line), and C (red line).

From your PoV, he will see A, maybe B depending on how good his peripheral vision is, but not C because he is "behind the sentry". While I agree with you that is how it should work and would if 5E used facing, it doesn't. So, he will see all three.

Now, ToM, the DM can simply tell the player of Rogue C, "He is looking away from your position" and deny Line of Sight I suppose. But he could just as easily say the sentry is occasionally turning to look behind himself so might see Rogue C.

There were optional facing rules in the 2014 DMG, but they weren't transferred to 2024, so technically they're still usable as-is

 

[ezo]

There were optional facing rules in the 2014 DMG, but they weren't transferred to 2024, so technically they're still usable as-is

If someone has a 2014 book or knows about the SRD and has it (assuming its there?), sure.

But I like to look at a new edition from the light of a player who is new to the game with that edition.

Personally, I feel like there are a couple small points missing from the Stealth rules in 2024 that I can see causing confusion. I mean, I am not even using 2024 rules at all--so for me this is all really a thought exercise.

 

[Lazybones]

I see line of sight as something that the DM has to adjudicate based on the particular circumstances, since there needs to be (for me, at least) a middle ground between "hiding characters can walk right past guards in the open" and "sentries have always-on 360 vision that instantly detects anything within their line of sight."

This is the house rule I'm using in my 2024 campaign:

A creature can lose the Invisible condition granted by a successful Stealth check if they enter the direct line of sight of another creature without the benefit of cover, barring some mitigating situation (e.g., distraction, obscurement, lighting or absence thereof). The DM will determine if a situation warrants the loss of the Invisible condition, but will notify the character attempting to use Stealth beforehand if possible (e.g., if a Guard standing in a brightly lit area appears to be alert and looking directly at the spot where the Stealthed character is hiding).

My goal was to try to follow the intent of the 2024 rules, which to me seem intentionally permissive in terms of allowing characters to Hide and then sneak around the battlefield, while preempting the extreme scenarios that were advanced in the other (and now this) thread on the stealth rules.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

Sure, but by the rules of the game, it doesn't matter. The fact is you can establish Line of Sight to all three Rogues while they are moving positions so they are seen.

SMH, are we not discussing the rules? Just because you want to metagame it or speed through the RP doesn't mean they can see everything at once.

 

[Selas]

Ok then I've got to ask... Why can't enemies target someone who has had the invisibility spell cast on them with any effects that rely on sight?

They can be targeted so long as the opposed creature can somehow see them. That’s from the invisible condition which the invisibility spell grants. Specifically the concealed section.

In the case of the magic spells or magical abilities that grants the Invisible condition: special senses, abilities or magic are the only things the PHB directly mentions. Perception--which governs normal sight--is not used as a check to end it unless it is specified in the text.

Here's the ones I can recall:

Edit: These dont end the Invisible condition, just bypass two of the effects it gives (Concealed, Attacks Affected)

Senses - Blindsight, Truesight, Tremorsense
Spells - See Invisibility, Starry Wisp, Faerie Fire, Mind Spike
Abilities - Most confer either a special sense or a spell

 

[ezo]

SMH, are we not discussing the rules? Just because you want to metagame it or speed through the RP doesn't mean they can see everything at once.

Yes, and I am telling you by the rules (2024) there is no facing. At beast, as @Selas pointed out it is an optional rule in 2014.

The rules establish how to determine Line of Sight as I've shown, so when the Rogues move, they are in Line of Sight.

In ToM it becomes more the DM's perrogative, certainly!

 

[kayakingpoodle]

Where does it say ther is no facing, this discussion on the hide action is about facing.