D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[FrogReaver]

With a scattered bag of flour!

I prefer the disappearing pee method.

If you pee and your pee disappears by being absorbed into their concealed pants leg or bounces off seemingly nothing

 

[ezo]

This isn't true,

Actually... it is true. You have the rule to establish Line of Sight and I did that.

there's lots of things that exist but don't have explicit rules defined which simply means the DM decides.

Of course, which is why it is less of an issue if you play ToM or the DM just decides "he is looking the other way" and doesn't want to follow the rule to estabilsh Line of Sight.

Not sure if in the new PHB they have the same line, but in the '14 PHB says creatures stay alert for danger all around. Essentially in combat they are constantly glancing over their shoulder and looking around. If the guard is doing the same and glancing around constantly then yes they effectively have a 360 degree vision, though even then if a player says they wait for him to look one way and make a break for the next bit of cover it comes down to how the DM adjudicates that situation.

Yep, and as I said the DM can just handwave it however they want, but that doesn't change the fact the rule for establishing Line of Sight is met.

They might say the distance is to far to cross before the guard looks back so automatically seen, they might say that's a great plan and autosuccess, they might use the stealth value that was previously rolled and compare it to the guards PP, or they might call for a new roll. There are no rules to explicitly define which option is how it's supposed to be ruled, but that doesn't mean facing doesn't exist, it means facing is under DM discrestion.

If there is not a rule for it, there is not a rule for it. Now, that doesn't mean the DM can't do what they want, of course, but my point was in 2024 there is NO RULE for facing.

If there is no facing, how can "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."
If there is no facing the when you can see them the they can see you. No decerning possible without facing.

Now where is it written there is no facing?

Nothing you quoted says there is a rule for facing. If two creatures have Line of Sight, they can see each other. There is no obstacle or heavy obscurement preventing creating Line of Sight.

There's none. You can do a word search in the 2024 books on DDB and you will find no mention of facing rules. Do a search on the 2014 DMG and you get the Facing rules in CH8

Yes, I know. You brought it up already, I mentioned you brought it up, and I am well familar with the rule in 2014. But as you have said yourself, in 2024 there is none.

 

[Selas]

2 out of the 3 sections of it. But yea.

So how do you propose a creature with the invisible condition can ‘somehow be seen’?

Keep in mind whatever applies for invisible condition due to hiding (in regards to somehow seeing) will also apply to the invisible condition from the spell, because it’s the same condition.

If you're talking about being able to see someone under the Invisibility spell with normal sight, then you're out of luck because Perception doesn't work RAW. The spell doesn't say that an enemy finds you, nor does it give a DC Perception check. The condition doesn't tell you how you can be seen, because that is not it's role, it's the trigger feature (in this case, the Invisibility spell).

For all intents, you vanish in thin air when you use the spell, but that doesn't make you transparent, just hides you from an enemy's ability to perceive you through normal means.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

Nothing you quoted says there is a rule for facing. If two creatures have Line of Sight, they can see each other. There is no obstacle or heavy obscurement preventing creating Line of Sight.

Are you kidding, "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."

Decern - Decide; determine; decree.

If this isn't facing, what is.

I would still like to see where the 24 rules say there is no facing.

 

[Sorinth]

Actually... it is true. You have the rule to establish Line of Sight and I did that.


Of course, which is why it is less of an issue if you play ToM or the DM just decides "he is looking the other way" and doesn't want to follow the rule to estabilsh Line of Sight.


Yep, and as I said the DM can just handwave it however they want, but that doesn't change the fact the rule for establishing Line of Sight is met.


If there is not a rule for it, there is not a rule for it. Now, that doesn't mean the DM can't do what they want, of course, but my point was in 2024 there is NO RULE for facing.

I could be wrong here, but your responses come across as claiming that the DM making a ruling on facing is not RAW/RAI, which sure is their prerogative, but a strictly RAW reading is actually 360 degree vision.

If that's the case I think you're wrong, the RAI & RAW is that it's DM discretion and very likely because any rules they try to write on facing will be flawed and exploitable so it's better to fully leave it up to the DM to judge.

Oh and as a complete aside, there is an optional facing rule in the '14 DMG. Which heavily implies not that the intent is that facing exists but if your table doesn't like the default use case of it being DM discretion then here's a way of handling it.

 

[Selas]

Are you kidding, "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."

Decern - Decide; determine; decree.

If this isn't facing, what is.

I would still like to see where the 24 rules say there is no facing.

Unfortunately, those are not facing rules. The DM can use that to determine if an enemy doesn't have line of sight of you, but it doesn't count as facing rules, and there is no section on 2024 like there was in 2014.

 

[ezo]

Are you kidding, "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."

Decern - Decide; determine; decree.

If this isn't facing, what is.

How about an actual rule for facing?

I would still like to see where the 24 rules say there is no facing.

And here we go again... I've already showed you how a creature can establish Line of Sight in all directions around it.

SO ME THE FACING RULE in 24! I can show you the rule on Initiative, Attacks, Hide, etc. The onus is on you.

I could be wrong here, but your responses come across as claiming that the DM making a ruling on facing is not RAW/RAI, which sure is their prerogative, but a strictly RAW reading is actually 360 degree vision.

Correct. (To be clear I don't agree with that, but in lack of a rule on Facing... any ruling a DM decides is a house-rule. I wish WotC had included on, or at least the option like in 2014...)

If that's the case I think you're wrong, the RAI & RAW is that it's DM discretion and very likely because any rules they try to write on facing will be flawed and exploitable so it's better to fully leave it up to the DM to judge.

You can think I'm wrong, certainly, but I don't. RAW are not at the DM's discretion--they are, in fact, written. Choosing to use them or not, modify them, or make up there own is at the DM's discretion of course! And one DM might judge one way, while another might judge completely differently.

Oh and as a complete aside, there is an optional facing rule in the '14 DMG. Which heavily implies not that the intent is that facing exists but if your table doesn't like the default use case of it being DM discretion then here's a way of handling it.

Yes, this has been mentioned in 2014, but sadly did not find its way into 2024 for the people who are new to the game and will be using these rules for several years to come.

Unfortunately, those are not facing rules. The DM can use that to determine if an enemy doesn't have line of sight of you, but it doesn't count as facing rules, and there is no section on 2024 like there was in 2014.

Correct and thank you!

 

[kayakingpoodle]

How about an actual rule for facing?


And here we go again... I've already showed you how a creature can establish Line of Sight in all directions around it.

SO ME THE FACING RULE in 24! I can show you the rule on Initiative, Attacks, Hide, etc. The onus is on you.

I showed you it is in the rules.
Show where it syas it is not in the rules.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

The problem lies in 5E that there is no "facing". A creature's line of sight is all around them.

Also you're moving the goalposts from facing doesn't exist in the game to show me a specific rule about facing.

 

[KYRON45]

Are you kidding, "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."

Decern - Decide; determine; decree.

If this isn't facing, what is.

I would still like to see where the 24 rules say there is no facing.

Can you point to the rules in the 2024 books on facing?