D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Micah Sweet]

I guess most people know enough about physics to make assumptions about a lot of things. And even if they are not totally correct, as long as the table agrees, no harm done.

Do you really want the designers to have an appendix that explains how physics work? Maybe that would be beyond the point of a ruleset.

Or do you just want a sentence that says: assume that real world physics apply if nothing in the rules says otherwise?

I think I prefer the "rules are no physics" statement. Which actually puts physics over rules. My 2nd proposal would leave the door open for any kinds of exploits.

I rather think that line implies that rules trump physics.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't have the 2024 PHB to refer to, but 2014 explains the lack of facing thusly:

 

[Charlaquin]

Then why does it say "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."

Because that’s true…? If you can see a creature, you know if it can see you. For example, if you are invisible and you see a creature that doesn’t have truesight, you know it can’t see you. If you are invisible and you see a creature that does have truesight, you know it can.

 

[Charlaquin]

So where is the specifc rule stating you have this omnivision?

DMG page 45.

 

[Selas]

I don't have the 2024 PHB to refer to, but 2014 explains the lack of facing thusly:

View attachment 397052

This is no longer present in 2024. Neither Hiding nor combat rules make a mention of it. The Line of Sight rules on page 45 in the new DMG are the same as the 2014 ones, but that does not mean not the same as your screenshot.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't have the 2024 PHB to refer to, but 2014 explains the lack of facing thusly:

View attachment 397052

Yeah, this line was removed. Though, since the general rule is that a creature has line of sight to every space that an unbroken line can be drawn to from any corner of its space, and there is no rule making an exception for spaces that are “behind” the creature, that text is, technically, redundant. And since the editors apparently went full beast-mode on saving page space in the 2024 books, anything like this that was helpful but technically redundant got the axe.

EDIT: And by the way, the removal of this line is a big part of the reason I’m pretty sure it’s entirely intentional that the new stealth rules seem to result in you staying invisible while out in the open until a creature uses the Search action and passes a check. I think they wanted to get rid of that pesky DM discretion element and just say “until a creature makes a successful perception check to find you, it’s distracted enough that it doesn’t see you.”

 

[MerricB]

EDIT: And by the way, the removal of this line is a big part of the reason I’m pretty sure it’s entirely intentional that the new stealth rules seem to result in you staying invisible while out in the open until a creature uses the Search action and passes a check. I think they wanted to get rid of that pesky DM discretion element and just say “until a creature makes a successful perception check to find you, it’s distracted enough that it doesn’t see you.”

I really wish it was clear one way or the other! Cause it's not like passive Perception got removed from the game - and it's in every monster stat block. What is it there for if not Stealth?

And of course, there's still this paragraph on Hiding in Chapter 1 on the PHB:
"Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. "

The "let's rid of text we don't need" - which they actually needed - was also apparent in the update to Lost Mine of Phandelver in The Shattered Obelisk, where they got rid of some very important text. (The Bugbear who stole the map no longer has treasure... which included the map).

 

[Selas]

Yeah, this line was removed. Though, since the general rule is that a creature has line of sight to every space that an unbroken line can be drawn to from any corner of its space, and there is no rule making an exception for spaces that are “behind” the creature, that text is, technically, redundant. And since the editors apparently went full beast-mode on saving page space in the 2024 books, anything like this that was helpful but technically redundant got the axe.

EDIT: And by the way, the removal of this line is a big part of the reason I’m pretty sure it’s entirely intentional that the new stealth rules seem to result in you staying invisible while out in the open until a creature uses the Search action and passes a check. I think they wanted to get rid of that pesky DM discretion element and just say “until a creature makes a successful perception check to find you, it’s distracted enough that it doesn’t see you.”

And I do agree with your edit; what I don't agree is with this ridiculous notion some have that because the Invisible condition doesn't specify how you can be seen, if you gain the condition from the Invisibility spell then you can still be seen by just looking at you.

 

[MerricB]

And I do agree with your edit; what I don't agree is with this ridiculous notion some have that because the Invisible condition doesn't specify how you can be seen, if you gain the condition from the Invisibility spell then you can still be seen by just looking at you.

Did you notice that Mike Mearls agreed with the reading that the new Invisibility spell as written doesn't actually make you invisible (as in, fading from sight, etc.)?

Incidentally, Legacy definition of "invisible":

• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.

Current definition of "invisible"

Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

I don't think we'd have all these problems with how it worked if the Hide action hadn't also made you "Invisible". (Because, when you're hidden, you're still physically visible). And so when two things both make you "Invisible", you rather need something more to distinguish what they mean.

 

[Charlaquin]

I really wish it was clear one way or the other! Cause it's not like passive Perception got removed from the game - and it's in every monster stat block. What is it there for if not Stealth?

Well, I do think passive Perception would count by RAI. RAW is not entirely clear, but I do think it is reasonable to infer.

And of course, there's still this paragraph on Hiding in Chapter 1 on the PHB:
"Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. "

For hiding, as in taking the hide action, yes. It’s not clear to me this is meant to apply to staying hidden once you have the invisible condition. But it might be?

The "let's rid of text we don't need" - which they actually needed - was also apparent in the update to Lost Mine of Phandelver in The Shattered Obelisk, where they got rid of some very important text. (The Bugbear who stole the map no longer has treasure... which included the map).

Yeah, no kidding!