D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[tetrasodium]

No.

The problem is 5e was written for a customer base that isn't it's actual customer base.

It provides tools and has a base system for high level that the people who do play don't want.

High level 5e was designed for half drunk, beer and pretzels, no serious derp play.

Going to agree with this and give an example of that specific bit. Mearls recently did a q&a/interview where he mentioned the old dc chart that did not have a dc for climbing a wall covered with butter. While his example could have been thinking of dc30 climbing a slick wall, it overlooks the important part of that particular dc30 example where the "who could do it" was listed as "a high level barbarian". Climbing a slick wall might be a niche edge case, but having a group that contains a "high level barbarian" is very much not. With 5e they kept"high level barbarian" but decided that there really should never be a situation where a skill check that a party faces would need one and even less so for a high roll sided with help from the party's respective contributions to be needed.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It wasn't in the books
It was the entire department design philosophy of the edition.

That's why there are so many "holes" in the mechanics, why the designers missed "obvious" combos and interactions, and why so many pages are dedicated to "useless" information.

The game was designed for people who already had information and did not want to be told what to do.

So surprise surprise they did not print that information.

If they don't state their design goals, then either you don't know what they are, they don't know what they are, or you are being misled.

 

[Minigiant]

If they don't state their design goals, then either you don't know what they are, they don't know what they are, or you are being misled.

They did state their design goals in articles and an interviews.

Those design goals didn't make it into the books because. those design goals were "don't print how to do anything. Don't tell me what to do".

The D&D next playtest had a huge don't tell me what to do mindset around it.

 

[Maxperson]

Quantity of the single style of high level campaign supported doesn't even pretend to acknowledge that differences in style wrt agency and the world as discussed when this came up are even possible. Your tunnel vision on 5e's single supposed style is so deep that you can't even consider anything else and default to meee quantity alone actually being played even when told about it.

I've run several campaigns with the tools 5e gives me that were not one shots, and did not suffer because of their lack of high level monsters.

It's the opposite of tunnel vision to see that there's more than one way to run high level campaigns with 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

I would say 5.5 is designed for that base, not WotC 5e as you and I define it.

They didn't make drastic enough changes to change who it was aimed at. 5.5e is aimed at the same audience as 5e was.

 

[Minigiant]

They didn't make drastic enough changes to change who it was aimed at. 5.5e is aimed at the same audience as 5e was.

It was not

The audience of 5.5e did not exist when 5e was made.

5e was a "get back the 1e, 2e, 3e, and PF1 fans" edition.

That's why level 12+ play in 5e was lame.

Because 1e and 2e didn't really scale well past level 13 out of the core 3 books. And 3e and PF1 broke or became unwieldy after level 11.

In 2023, WOTC's surveys said most respondents (48%) identify as millennials, vs. 19% from Generation X and 33% from Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2012).


And the player population recently crossed a point where the majority of current D&D players are those who started playing the game with the fifth edition.

5e is mostly player by people who did not play TTRPGs before 5e was published.

A lot of these new fans did not like aspects of 5e not made for them

HOWEVER...
those fans spent A LOT of money of 5e and 5e compatible product. Many of it to fix the parts of 5e not made for them or the part they felt 5e was missing.

So when WOTC decide to update the edition, they couldn't change too much because the large percentage of the 5e fanbase brought products to clean or fix 5e and didn't want to lose usage of it.

Thus 5.5e didn't change much.

And 5.5e was not allowed to fix it mismatched high level play.

So like 5.5e, like 5.0e, still doesn't let you play the barbarian like the Incredible Hulk at level 15.

 

[Maxperson]

It was not

The audience of 5.5e did not exist when 5e was made.

Two things. First, a lot of young people took part in the playtest. Enough to have a good sample size, so the ones that didn't playtest it don't mean anything, since they were represented. Second, 5.5e didn't change drastically enough to change the target audience, so either it's aimed at older players like 5e was, or the original was aimed at young folks with some nods to the older folk.

It's the latter. 5e's base structure is aimed at young people, not older players. But they put in some nods to older folks to try and bring us back to the fold. Those nods do not aim the edition at us. They simply drew us in to the edition aimed at the younger folk.

That's why level 12+ play in 5e was lame.

I know from personal experience that if it was lame, it was a DM problem. My 12+ games were very enjoyable, as were the ones I played in as a player.

 

[Minigiant]

Two things. First, a lot of young people took part in the playtest. Enough to have a good sample size, so the ones that didn't playtest it don't mean anything, since they were represented.

Sure

But from Wizard's own words the majority of current players of 5E did not play dungeons & dragons before 5e.

Those younger players during the play tests were players of 3E and 4E.

Second, 5.5e didn't change drastically enough to change the target audience, so either it's aimed at older players like 5e was, or the original was aimed at young folks with some nods to the older folk

Because it couldn't change.

5e was not allowed to change when it became 5.5 because the fan base had the sunken cost of buying books made for 5e and they did not want to lose those books.

The fan base demanded that the books that they bought from Kobold Press or Ghostfire Gaming or Magehand Press or Darrington press or whoever they bought books from, all the PDFs that they bought, and a homebrew that they got from Kickstarter or whatever they found it.. they demanded them to be backwards compatible.

That's why Jeremy Crawford would not shut up about it being backwards compatible.

The fans wanted things changed but not as much as they wanted the books the spent money on to be still useful.

I mean people couldn't get around their heads that some classes start at level 3 and old subclasses just get there first and second level features at level 3 now.

It's the latter. 5e's base structure is aimed at young people, not older players. But they put in some nods to older folks to try and bring us back to the fold. Those nods do not aim the edition at us. They simply drew us in to the edition aimed at the younger folk.

Nah bro

5e was aimed at grognards

That's why the 2014 dungeons Masters guide did not have any tools on teaching you how to be a DM and mostly had conversion rules to convert your old game to 5e and wasted entire chapter on the planes and minor planer gimmicks.

5E was an attempt to snag back the OSR crowd but make a game that they always are crowd could get there younger siblings children and nieces and nephews to play with them.

It didn't work They always are crowd stayed with their OSR games. The 3E crowd went and played Pathfinder 1 and Pathfinder 2.

And the younger kids mostly played 5e with the 4e crowd who no longer had the digital tools to continue playing 4e but could not find a 13th Age group big enough to play.

I know from personal experience that if it was lame, it was a DM problem. My 12+ games were very enjoyable, as were the ones I played in as a player

It is a DM's problem 5e high level play is boring to most of the 5e playerbase.

It takes a exceptionally good DM to make 5e high level interesting to most of the 5e player base.

That's the point 5e was made for people who are on the older side.

5E was literally made to grab 1E, 2E, and 3E fans.

If you were 25 when 3E came out, you are 50 now.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure

But from Wizard's own words the majority of current players of 5E did not play dungeons & dragons before 5e.

Those younger players during the play tests were players of 3E and 4E.

Many of them were, yes. Others would have been brought in by 3e and 4e DMs to playtest and had that be their first experience with D&D.

Because it couldn't change.

You can't argue that 5.5e is aimed at young people and agree with me that 5e couldn't change, while still saying 5e is aimed at older players.

That's why the 2014 dungeons Masters guide did not have any tools on teaching you how to be a DM and mostly had conversion rules to convert your old game to 5e and wasted entire chapter on the planes and minor planer gimmicks.

The 2014 DMG had amazing tools to teach people how to DM and build settings. It was just very poorly organized. It was aimed at new DMs, not old ones. Old DMs didn't need 90% of that book.

It is a DM's problem 5e high level play is boring to most of the 5e playerbase.

That's what happens when you don't teach DMs how to run high level games. The problem is lack of teaching. Not lack of tools.

It takes a exceptionally good DM to make 5e high level interesting to most of the 5e player base.

No it doesn't. Any average DM who knows how to run a high level game can make it fun.

 

[Minigiant]

Many of them were, yes. Others would have been brought in by 3e and 4e DMs to playtest and had that be their first experience with D&D.

Not many.
Most

Straight from WOTC'S mouth.
Most 5e fans Did not play D&D before 5e.
They did not exist.
They straight up did not participate in the DNDN Playtest.
Most people who currently play 5e today did not fill out a D&D Next survey.