D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[SkidAce]

It's absolutely true. All of it. Those of us playing 2nd ed were easily able to roll with it because we knew the esoteric nature. New players that entered with WOTC versions heard it was much worst than it actually was though. If you knew the paradigm you knew where bonuses and penalties applied

It was still bizarrely idiosyncratic.

 

[KYRON45]

It is but I've seen plenty posts where posters say Thaco was hard or complex and no one felt the need to tell them its relative, I guess only one side needs to hear this universal truth.

It seemed silly to me more than difficult. We barely used rules at all back in the before times.
But I don’t represent a side…just myself.

 

[Minigiant]

Technically, I don't think there's anything that adjusts THAC0 (other than level/HD). Everything else is expressed as a bonus/penalty to the attack roll.

Now, on the sheets I made myself for 2e, I remember having spaces for adjusted THAC0 for melee, ranged, and thrown attacks (adjusted for Strength, Dexterity, and both), and the weapon table on the sheet also had an adjusted THAC0 (which would also include things like weapon specialization and magic weapons). But that was a convenience I created for my players, not something official. Technically, a 6th level fighter with Strength 18/00, a +2 weapon, and weapon specialization would still have THAC0 15 for being a 6th level fighter, and then add +6 to attack rolls. On my sheet there'd be an adjusted THAC0 of 9, but that wasn't official.

What is more confusing is AC. Let's say you wear chain mail for AC 5. You have Dexterity 16 which gives you a Defensive Adjustment of -2, which you apply to your AC, lowering it to 3. Then you find a ring of protection +1 – now what happens to your AC? Do you apply the +1, increasing it to 4 (is it a cursed ring?)? Or do you decrease AC by 1 to 2? And if so, why are you using the Dex adjustment straight but reverse the ring's adjustment?

Like I said. The problem was the bonuses not the core base number. Thac0 and AC weren't a problem. It was the modifiers

It's objectively bad game design to have a major mechanic be confusing to new players if you are trying to make money with it but selling it to the public.

Maybe by 7ed, D&D will get modifiers right.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Relative to what?

I was literally at the best school in the country for math, getting As, have a certificate that "proves" I am in the top 10% of people at that age (like 14) who were doing maths in Britain, and THAC0 was slowing me down.

So relative to what? If you need to be smarter and better at maths than I was for THAC0 to not mess with you, then that is, factually, objectively, a problem. Not relatively. Objectively.

Ask the poster I was replying to as they used it first.

Who made Ruin Explorer the data metric by which one measures the difficulty or complexity of Thaco.

 

[Alzrius]

Who made Ruin Explorer the data metric by which one measures the difficulty or complexity of Thaco.

There's a reason why an argument from authority is a fallacy (especially when the person making it is citing themselves as the authority in question).

 

[AnotherGuy]

It seemed silly to me more than difficult. We barely used rules at all back in the before times.
But I don’t represent a side…just myself.

Look if you're going to be downgrading it from difficult to silly without consulting the necessary authorities you're going to be upsetting some incredibly capable mathematicians.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm playing 2E tomorrow night. Still play 5E.

Tge engine sucks it's AD&D but there's something there. It's the best DM tool box edition imho.

Lost the thief player though. He's figured out the class is bad. Might offer a rewrote and he can rebuild if he's still interested.

I feel his pain.

 

[Minigiant]

One of my personal gripes on D&D conservatism.is on weapons and armor.

So what if it's not psuedo-Medieval-Renaissance Britian coded.

Put the double sword, giant sword, Aztec macuahuitl club swords, hookswords, giant pizza cutters, cloak shields, ultra heavy armor, and paint that makes your skin hard as steel in the back of one of the main books and make it official options.

"Just roleplay it and refluff a sword"

Nah bud. My fighter fights with a cloud giant's old enchanted pizza cutter.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Everything that is funny, is mockery or ridicule.

The difference is if you are laughing together (good) or laughing at someone (bad). Or if you are "punching down" (bad).

Where the bigger problem arises is when we think we are good natured laughing, and it unknowingly hurts other folks.

Personally, I used THAC0 and played all the editions. I think the jokes so far have been funny, and well-intentioned*
"Rawr"


*of course we know where good intentions lead us...sigh

I think people that had issue with it likely experienced/participated with the venom online by posters. I never bought the AP (still busy with 3 others) and just heard about Thaco the Clown from threads here.
I thought it was a cool inside joke.
Many self proclaimed grognards here often make the "get of my lawn" joke. It's all in good spirit.
I guess like many things in life it's how you encountered the news dictates heavily how you are likely to react to it.

EDIT: My background is BECMI/2e era and I loved Thaco. I didn't think it was difficult at all but there were certainly friends at my table who couldn't do the math in their head and had to consult the mini table on their character sheets.

 

[Zardnaar]

One of my personal gripes on D&D conservatism.is on weapons and armor.

So what if it's not psuedo-Medieval-Renaissance Britian coded.

Put the double sword, giant sword, Aztec macuahuitl club swords, hookswords, giant pizza cutters, cloak shields, ultra heavy armor, and paint that makes your skin hard as steel in the back of one of the main books and make it official options.

"Just roleplay it and refluff a sword"

Nah bud. My fighter fights with a cloud giant's old enchanted pizza cutter.

That's more splatbook material.

I don't think people are to hard wired on faux medieval but there's expectations I suspect on generic fantasy tropes.

Guns are iffy for example.