Overrated/Underrated Geek Media

[Deset Gled]

I just want to throw out that "no one talks about X anymore" can be a very localized phenomenon. There are shows you don't hear about that have thriving communities, you just don't about it because media in the days of the internet can be highly fragmented. Somewhere there's a person saying "I haven't heard about D&D since the pandemic".

I am specifically reminded of this because a year or two ago I went through a phase of doing "bar bet" style tricks with my kids. After a few viewings of Harry the Hat tricks, my YouTube algorithm got absolutely stuck on Cheers videos. So I can assure you there's someone uploading and discussing that series.

Also, as a reminder, all of those "Trending Now" or "Most Viewed This Week" things on Netflix, Hulu Prime, whatever, are ads, not metrics. But don't worry about that. Trust The Algorithm. The Algorithm knows what is best for you. The Algorithm watches all, and The Algorithm tells us what we like.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Just Shoot Me

THAT RAN FOR SEVEN SEASONS!?!??!?!?!?!? What? I think I've seen maybe five episodes of it. Good god, what a time to be a mediocre comedy show the '90s was!

I guess my issue with this pattern/theory is that some (such as Raymond) of the still-discussed shows in barely fit the pattern, and there are lots of shows of the era that exemplified it more (Caroline in the City, Just Shoot Me, Unhappily Ever After) that are, if not forgotten, certainly in the low tier of still-remembered. Maybe that's because most of them are in the same 'tagalong show' bin I put Wings in.

Yeah maybe it has to be both:

A) A "main" show - all of the ones we listed were like why were turning on the TV or flipping to that channel.

and

B) Have like enough bite/energy to make an impact.

On the other hand, Dad’s Army, which started in the 60s, just won’t die.

I don't think anyone actually re-watches that, though right? It's more like it's a kind of meme of a TV show, and I think part of it is that it was still being rebroadcast by the BBC in what, the late 1990s? Later?

It's not even available for streaming here in the UK AFAICT, despite Justwatch suggesting "one season" is available on NowTV and BBC - I mean, I didn't check NowTV, but I did check BBC and it's actually it's one random-seeming episode from 1972 which is available until Monday, and I presume was only put up for some specific reason.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I didn't know what to do with bringing up Roseanne (or Married With Children). They are concurrent with Seinfeld (started at the end of the 80s) and kinda found their footing alongside it. Friends and Frasier and such definitely* were built with reaction to Seinfeld's success in mind, whereas these two (although they did evolve as they went along, perhaps in part in reaction to it) started out with their own transgressive energies. They are weird, in that they are in many ways just as edgy, vulgar, or with unsympathetic protagonists, but in a way that seemed more familiar to what came before (Married With Children notably being The Honeymooners meets All in the Family, just with the male protagonist aware that he was the butt of the joke). I'm trying desperately to figure out how these are different from Seinfeld (because it sure feels like they are), but not coming up with anything. *to the point where we've heard the stories about them being asked to 'be more like Seinfeld'

Alzrius's complaint is valid. The term I always use is unsympathetic protagonists. They are occasionally villainous in a 'you would never actually want to know these people,' but not universally. What seems more consistent is that they are deeply foolish and flawed people who end up causing problems where ever they go, and, in general, we the audience delight in them getting their comeuppance (compared to Ralph Kramden or Archie Bunker or Roseanne, who in general I think we'd rather learn an important lesson by the end of the episode). That's about all I can come up with* that makes Seinfeld unique -- they set themselves up as bad enough that you actually want them to fail.
*and I'm not 100% convinced myself.

​

​

This is why I mentioned Abbot and Costello. This stuff existed in forms before. Married with children is a good example to bring up. I think that is a valid point. Though it’s transgressive energy is very different than Seinfeld (both Rosanne and Marrued with Children had a political element to them that Seinfeld didn’t: but those shows were more about family dysfunction and being obnoxious than the characters being wicked. They could be mean.

I would encourage people to rewatch all of Seinfeld. I did that recently and was surprised how badly behaved the characters were (in a good way). I am not saying they are a bunch of Edmund Blackadders. But they routinely do things cross lines you didn’t typically see protagonists doing in shows at that time. I don’t hunk it is the only thing that was going on with the show but Elaine does seriously contemplate murder (and she may in fact have committed it). She hires Newman to abduct a dog that is keeping her up at night. Jerry gets wrapped up in a criminal bootlegging network, he steals bread from an old lady, and he refuses to give mouth to mouth out of a fear of germs. Elaine gets the soup Nazi shut down. And George is regularly engaged in deceptive and unethical behavior. They aren’t murderous (barring that one oddly surreal joke with Elaine). But they are incredibly self centered people who violate all kinds of social norms, even laws. This is what the Bizarro Jerry episode was remarking upon (just how the group had progressed towards being a group is degenerates: fun degenerates who weren’t a bunch of squares, but degenerates

I think they have other qualities: like being fools and whatever else the humor of the show requires. But I do think the willingness of the show to be mean was notable (and it didn’t exist in a vacuum: I do think shows like Rosanne and Married with Children also deserve credit there). But keep in mind Married with Children was on Fox like Gary Shandling. That was actually a highly experimental network at the time (Simpson were on it too). Heck in living color was one of the most transgressive shows ever and would be hugely transgressive even today. But most of the shows on the other networks were stuff like perfect strangers, family ties, growing pains, etc. at least I think those were the kinds of shows you were contrasting Seinfeld with when it aired (I would be curious to see the schedules again as I am going by memory)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I just want to throw out that "no one talks about X anymore" can be a very localized phenomenon. There are shows you don't hear about that have thriving communities, you just don't about it because media in the days of the internet can be highly fragmented. Somewhere there's a person saying "I haven't heard about D&D since the pandemic".

I am specifically reminded of this because a year or two ago I went through a phase of doing "bar bet" style tricks with my kids. After a few viewings of Harry the Hat tricks, my YouTube algorithm got absolutely stuck on Cheers videos. So I can assure you there's someone uploading and discussing that series.

Also, as a reminder, all of those "Trending Now" or "Most Viewed This Week" things on Netflix, Hulu Prime, whatever, are ads, not metrics. But don't worry about that. Trust The Algorithm. The Algorithm knows what is best for you. The Algorithm watches all, and The Algorithm tells us what we like.

I don't think it's quite as localized as you're suggesting, given that quite a lot of the shows people are saying are forgotten are literally not even available for streaming.

Cheers is, at least (albeit on Paramount+). But I don't think anyone is saying that's forgotten, just overshadowed.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't think anyone actually re-watches that, though right

It’s been broadcast almost continuously on BBC2, although obviously not many people under the age of 163 watch that.

But I do know someone younger than me who watches it.

My dad used to watch Last of the Summer Wine, which first started running during the Roman occupation, when is was known as Ultima Aestate Vinum.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It’s been broadcast almost continuously on BBC2, although obviously not many people under the age of 163 watch that.

But I do know someone younger than me who watches it.

My dad used to watch Last of the Summer Wine, which first started running during the Roman occupation, when is was known as Ultima Aestate Vinum.

I used to watch Last of the Summer Wine when I was like 10! I think it was on at a time there was basically nothing else on at all.

EDIT - Christ 31 seasons? The longest running sitcom on the planet? I had no idea.

I did watch a bit of that single episode of Dad's Army that one can stream - it is funnier than I remembered (reaching "mildly amusing" mostly because John Le Mesurier and Arthur Lowe are very good in their roles), but my god, the studio audience thinks its hysterical, which was unhelpful.

Talking of studio audiences, I tried watching Mid-Century Modern on Disney, hoping it would be like, Golden Girls but with Gay Guys (which has to have been the elevator pitch) but despite being new, it had a studio audience/laughtrack which just... no. I had to stop watching it. Don't bring that back! DO NOT!

 

[payn]

I used to watch Last of the Summer Wine when I was like 10! I think it was on at a time there was basically nothing else on at all.

EDIT - Christ 31 seasons? The longest running sitcom on the planet? I had no idea.

I did watch a bit of that single episode of Dad's Army that one can stream - it is funnier than I remembered (reaching "mildly amusing" mostly because John Le Mesurier and Arthur Lowe are very good in their roles), but my god, the studio audience thinks its hysterical, which was unhelpful.

Talking of studio audiences, I tried watching Mid-Century Modern on Disney, hoping it would be like, Golden Girls but with Gay Guys (which has to have been the elevator pitch) but despite being new, it had a studio audience/laughtrack which just... no. I had to stop watching it. Don't bring that back! DO NOT!

Oh the laugh track just needs to die already.

 

[Gradine]

Rand's hyper individualism is easy to poke holes in, we are only individuals in contrast to the group, because if not, what are we? Ted Kazinsky? Living isolated in a shack somewhere has limited allure.

Rand's hyper individualism is specifically not about isolationism because without other people there's nobody to exploit for your own benefit.

 

[Bedrockgames]

They are weird, in that they are in many ways just as edgy, vulgar, or with unsympathetic protagonists, but in a way that seemed more familiar to what came before (Married With Children notably being The Honeymooners meets All in the Family, just with the male protagonist aware that he was the butt of the joke). I'm trying desperately to figure out how these are different from Seinfeld (because it sure feels like they are), but not coming up with anything. *to the point where we've heard the stories about them being asked to 'be more like Seinfeld'

​

They are definitely very different. But a notably one is Seinfeld is not a working class show the way All in the Family, The Honeymooners or Married with Children are. I haven't seen the Honeymooners since I was a very young child, but I suspect that might compare more to Seinfeld in some ways. The humor has a very different focus in Seinfeld than in these other shows. And it is much more glib I think. All in the Family could still get schmaltzy from time to time. And even Married With Children would occasionally make clear how Al really feels about Peg (he might do it by knocking a guy out who put the moves on her, but there seems to be genuine love in the family). Seinfeld's no hugging, no learning principle that Larry David mentions a lot may have something to do with it. Seinfeld is also very north eastern in terms of culture.

 

[payn]

Rand's hyper individualism is specifically not about isolationism because without other people there's nobody to exploit for your own benefit.

No no no... its the genius entrepreneur that is exploited but the dumb masses!