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D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

The first time I participated in a 5e adventure, I was the only martial (Fighter) in a party dominated by arcane spellcasters (College of Eloquence Bard, Wild Magic Sorcerer, Bladesinger Wizard). The group had a single teleporter.

Anyhow, while the game wants the party to be balanced, it's really something everyone in the group has to agree on in session zero IMO. Otherwise, everyone is going to create their own character without thinking about party composition. There is nothing wrong with that as this approach is pretty RL.
The real issue with this is, I feel, is that it puts the DM on the spot. Now I know, some DM's don't really care to balance their campaigns around the player's choices- "Oh you chose to have a Druid heal you instead of a Cleric so you don't have the right spell for the job? Sucks to be you." -and that's a legitimate way to play.

But I'm one of those DM's who doesn't want to present my players with situations 5 levels in that essentially needed to be solved pre-session 1 if I can help it. In earlier forms of D&D, acquiring a potion/scroll/wand/etc. to path weaknesses, even if only a temporary level, were a lot more viable.

5e doesn't allow for that sort of thing in the same way- heck, I had to house rule scrolls in my game just so they could be viably used! You can't just go to a major city and grab 10 potions of acid resistance before a Black Dragon fight.

(And even when I arrange for the players to find things I know they'll need well in advance, they either forget about them, sell them, or don't think to use them because they simply don't have the action economy- some classes and subclasses, for example, really need their bonus action free to function- thanks WotC!)

Which means I've had to look at monsters and go "wait, it has 150 hit points? Yeah, that's a no", lol, which makes "play what you want" cause just as many headaches for me, the DM, as it does the players!
 

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I just wanted to point out that at high levels a battle master can combine menacing attack with push using any weapon from tactical master to play the frighted and away game.

Yes but the save against Frightened is not with disadvantage and it only lasts one round. With an EK you make it with disadvantage and if you keep hitting him he continues to make it with disadvantage.

Push can be used by any fighter, but compared to Dissonant Whispers it only works on Large or smaller creatures and only moves them a small amount, sometimes not even out of reach.

Relentless makes it once per turn, not two free casts in a day, plus spending superiority dice can due it to up to three targets. EK's burn through slots fairly fast with wrathful smite and dissonant whispers if they try to maintain the strategy.

They do use up slots, but at 11th level they have 9 of them, which is pretty comparable to how many battlemaster maneuvers you get a day. Less some days, more some days, and you can get multiple rounds out of Wrathful Smite.

Also Dissonant Whispers can be replaced by Shove as I noted earlier in my post, albeit less effectively, but as effective as it is for a Battlemaster.

They also don't need to worry about an off casting stat to make up with disadvantage.

The casting stat is not the off stat, Strength is. You push your casting stat to 20 first and when you take the attack action your strongest attack of your 3 (Truestrike) is triggering off of the casting stat.

This also works good for Ranged, you can use a Heavy Crossbow with Truestrike and do far better damage at very long range and can still follow that with 2 Javelin throws at disadvantage.

With point buy and Truestrike there is little reason for an EK to push their martial stat except for levels 5-6. After level 7 your best attack with extra attack is a Cantrip.

You could go with a TCE Blade Cantrip instead as your primary attack and get a little better damage in 5-foot distance melee only, but those are a lot more limiting in play typically, so usually I want the +5 on Truestrike, not a blade cantrip. If I am going to go with TCE Blade cantrip as my main attack I am probably going to multiclass Warlock, dump intelligence, max Charisma and get Booming Blade and GFB on Fighter so I can use it with War Magic. There are a lot of ways to work this but they all start with Booming Blade or GFB as a Fighter cantrip with a charisma based attack. You could go pact of tome or Magic Initiate for Shilleleagh (Charisma) and use EB-AB or Truestrike-AB for Ranged attacks (no extra attack), or alternatively go Pact of Blade and use a bonus action to swap your pact weapon between a melee weapon and a magic Longbow whether you are melee or ranged (using Booming Blade in melee). Either option again makes you great at melee and still good at ranged. If I am multiclassing Warlock it is Warlock 2-Fighter 12 and then probably Sorcerer or Bard levels after that.


Battle master's tend to have either a good STR or DEX score.

Single classed Eldritch Knights tend to have a 20 Intelligence by level 8. The build I mentioned above has 3 Intelligence feats by level 8, so it should good.

What works great for the Eldritch Knight is you can have an 8 Dex and still fire a Heavy Crossbow with a +9 Attack roll using Truestrike with War Magic.

Level 11 this gives you a ranged attack with a +5 stat for 1d10+2d6 damage all the way out to 100 feet or 400 feet with disadvantage while still having two 16 Strength +3 Javelins behind it if they are within Javelin range..
 
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The real issue with this is, I feel, is that it puts the DM on the spot. Now I know, some DM's don't really care to balance their campaigns around the player's choices- "Oh you chose to have a Druid heal you instead of a Cleric so you don't have the right spell for the job? Sucks to be you." -and that's a legitimate way to play.

But I'm one of those DM's who doesn't want to present my players with situations 5 levels in that essentially needed to be solved pre-session 1 if I can help it. In earlier forms of D&D, acquiring a potion/scroll/wand/etc. to path weaknesses, even if only a temporary level, were a lot more viable.

5e doesn't allow for that sort of thing in the same way- heck, I had to house rule scrolls in my game just so they could be viably used! You can't just go to a major city and grab 10 potions of acid resistance before a Black Dragon fight.
My experience has been different. A lot of B/X and 1e and 2e was really dependent on if you had a spellcasting cleric in your party or not, it was really not easy to just go buy healing potions. I gamed for a long while in a two person party in a 2e game where we were a fighter/mu and a fighter and resting for all your healing is much different than going with a cleric.

3e about half of all classes could use a wand of cure light wounds, which were cheap and easy to acquire, and be the party out of combat healer. I did it a bunch as a ranger.

4e was just great for going with most any party composition with multiple full healer classes starting with the core PH and the healing surge mechanic.

5e is decent with a lot of classes having healing spells from 1st level (bard, cleric, druid, with Xanathars and Tashas you could add sorcerer and warlock options, and now in 24 PH ranger and paladin) and the short rest hit dice mechanic for potential out of combat healing without a healer.
 

But I'm one of those DM's who doesn't want to present my players with situations 5 levels in that essentially needed to be solved pre-session 1 if I can help it. In earlier forms of D&D, acquiring a potion/scroll/wand/etc. to path weaknesses, even if only a temporary level, were a lot more viable.
Generally my campaigns either don't require any specific class, or there is some sort of item or NPC that the team can use to cover what a specific class can do. So if I need the group to get to the City of Brass, there will be a way without needing a high level wizard in the party to cast a spell to transport them.
 

Tactical mind is nice, but it's built off a shared resource. Granting bardic inspiration can be done far more often, and reliable talent is still the best option IME.

You can not use Bardic Inspiration unless you have it already and a Bard can't give himself inspiration.

Reliable talent is online later in the game and at that point Rogues start competing with fighters, but before that fighters are better at skills

I disagree with this pretty hard.

The issue isn't the bonuses or the ability score spread (because both can be DEX based) but the fact the rogue has more skill proficiencies and expertise all the time while the fighter has two or three uses of second wind that recover one use on a short rest, and those are also used up healing the fighter instead.

In tier 1 the fighter and the Rogue have the same number of basic profiencies, 4 unless they get more from a feat or species.

You are wasting second wind if you are using it for healing at level 2-4 when a potion can do the same with the same action cost and no daily resource cost. The exception is before you take a rest if you have not used them on changing failures to successes.

Yes, if you waste your resources you are not as good. For all the talk about Wizards being supreme, if my Wizard burns all their spell slots on find traps and Unseen Servant they are not going to be very good.

Between level 2-4 if you are not using your second wind for Tactical Mind you are wasting it. After level 5 when Tactical Shift comes online it is a different story.


Even using tactical mind for all second wind uses is only a couple of bonuses and that is not as good as more smaller bonuses.

No it is not because it is not used up unless it changes a fail to a success. Comparing a Rogue with Expertise to a fighter with no proficiency at all, at level 3 you need 5 checks a day in that skills the Rogue has expertise in before the Rogue is statistically better at making a skill check with that skill. That assumes no short rests and attempting Tactical Mind on every failure. With 2 short rests it is 11 checks.

It's comparable but not ahead. Reliable talent kicks tactical mind to the curb when it comes online.

Reliable talent is better at making easy checks and worse at making difficult checks and it is not online at all in tier 1. Reliable talent doesn't change the median at all, it is still 10.5+proficiency bonus with or without RT and the mean goes from 10.5 to 13 +proficiency.

At level 9, when expertise goes to +8 is when the Rogue generally starts being actually better than the fighter. RT and another


OTOH, enhance ability can be applied to a lot more checks than burning through second wind uses. Either has advantages.

I don't think so in play, particularly because you have to pick 1 ability, it is concentration, only lasts 1 hour and you might have passed many of those checks anyway and a few of them you might fail with advantage.

Further this is not typically considered a great spell generally and a caster is using a lot more of their daily resources to use it than a fighter is with tactical mind.

The issue with tactical mind is the limited resource that's shared with healing.

If you are playing stupid and using it for healing sure. Purposely wasting resources when you don't need to is not a reflection on the power of that resource.

If you are playing like 2014 where healing potions require an action it is a different story.

It's a useful bonus on a limited basis but it doesn't overshadow bards with expertise and jack of all trades, or rogues with expertise because those can come into play far more often.

Fighters are better than Rogues and Bards at skill checks in level 2-4 and you don't typically have nearly enough checks in a day for either of these classes to overcome the mathematical advantage offered by Tactical Mind.


Font of inspiration granting a lot of bonuses more often is easily better,

Font of Inspiration is not online in tier 1 and a Bard can't use it on himself for a skill check.

and so is reliable talent.

Reliable Talent is better at easy checks, when it comes online later in the game


Bards and rangers add spell support as well.

Ranger spells are not a match for Tactical Mind and at level 2-4 they do not have many of them.

Bard spells help a lot, especially later. I would still put them well behind fighters in tier 1 because of how limited Bard spells are and the resource cost for using them.

Enhance Ability for example is twice a day at 3rd level and 3 times a day at 4th level and you just blew your most powerful asset. Tactical Mind is the same number of uses with no short rests, more uses with any short rests at all and not nearly as big a resource cost generally as a caster's highest level slot.

Fighters get a good bonus once in a while but are not the best.

At level 2-4 they are by far the best. No other class is close.

There are 18 skills and a Fighter and a Rogue have the same score in 16 of them. The only differentiator is the two skills the Rogue has expertise in and he needs a TON of checks for that +4 to beat the +1d10 the fighter can try on a failure.

Part of this is the mathematical advantage offered by the larger number. Expertise is a passive ability that you do not use, but it only has a 20% chance of mattering on any roll. 80% of the rolls in tier 2 for a fighter with no proficiency and a Rogue with expertise will get the same result BEFORE a fighter even has to bring up try Tactical Mind.

Without TM in tier 1 there is only one check in five the Rogue with expertise will succeed on a check that the fighter without proficiency will fail with the same ability score. When the Rogue passes a check with expertise that the fighter would fail (20% of all checks), there is still an 85% chance the fighter can roll on tactical mind and also pass the check, additionally there is a 10.5% chance the Rogue will fail a check with expertise and the fighter without proficiency will succeed with the same d20 roll, and if he doesn't succeed he has the same result but does not use resource.

You need a lot of rolls for the Rogue to overcome this mathematical advantage and do better than the fighter on a majority of checks for the day, at least 5 checks in a day in a skill he is an expert in with no short rests at all, and it is more than that if you get any short rests.

There is a base 27.5% chance that tactical mind is used on any skill check (assuming DC greater than 1+ability+10 and less than 20+ability+1), so you need to attempt it almost 4 times to use it once on average.

For example 3rd level Rogue with 10 Intelligence, 10 Wisdom expertise in Perception and Investigation (+4) vs Fighter with no proficiency (+0) vs DC15 Investigation or Perception making multiple checks with no short rests at all

Chance they make the 1st perception or investigation check: Fighter 58%, Rogue 50%
Chance they make 2nd perception or investigation check: Fighter 58%, Rogue 50%
Chance they make the 3rd perception or investigation check: Fighter 55%, Rogue 50%
Chance they make the 4th perception or Investigation check: Fighter 53%, Rogue 50%.
Chance they make the 5th perception or Investivation Check: Fighter 49% Rogue 50%

At this point the Rogue is going to be better at checks he is an expert in for the rest of the day, but the fighter has been better up until this point going against the Rogues best two skills. Through the first 5 checks the Rogue on average succeeds on 2.5 of them and the fighter succeeds on 2.73 and this is with no short rests.

I used DC 15 and +4 for expertise to make the math easy, but the comparison is the same over a wide variation, it takes more than 5 checks with expertise for the Rogue to catch up to 2 uses of TM.

At the other 16 skills in the game, they have the same score/
 
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I suspect to many here are theory crafting and lack experience in 5.5.

In seeing more than work caster danage is basically crap relative to martials and hit points on enemies.

Casters can shut stuff down fine but that doesn't win combats by itself. Eventually your spell runs out.
Control buys time for the stricker types to do their thing.

Alot of classes excel at one thing but often a string secondary. Eg Paladins as strikers and support. Dragon sorcerers as strikers and control.

4 martials and a bard or Cleric to keep them going would be horrific lol. Maybe a dragon sorcerer, cleric/bard and 3 martials.
 

You can not use Bardic Inspiration unless you have it already and a Bard can't give himself inspiration.

Reliable talent is online later in the game and at that point Rogues start competing with fighters, but before that fighters are better at skills



In tier 1 the fighter and the Rogue have the same number of basic profiencies, 4 unless they get more from a feat or species.

You are wasting second wind if you are using it for healing at level 2-4 when a potion can do the same with the same action cost and no daily resource cost. The exception is before you take a rest if you have not used them on changing failures to successes.

Yes, if you waste your resources you are not as good. For all the talk about Wizards being supreme, if my Wizard burns all their spell slots on find traps and Unseen Servant they are not going to be very good.

Between level 2-4 if you are not using your second wind for Tactical Mind you are wasting it. After level 5 when Tactical Shift comes online it is a different story.




No it is not because it is not used up unless it changes a fail to a success. Comparing a Rogue with Expertise to a fighter with no proficiency at all, at level 3 you need 5 checks a day in that skills the Rogue has expertise in before the Rogue is statistically better at making a skill check with that skill. That assumes no short rests and attempting Tactical Mind on every failure. With 2 short rests it is 11 checks.



Reliable talent is better at making easy checks and worse at making difficult checks and it is not online at all in tier 1. Reliable talent doesn't change the median at all, it is still 10.5+proficiency bonus with or without RT and the mean goes from 10.5 to 13 +proficiency.

At level 9, when expertise goes to +8 is when the Rogue generally starts being actually better than the fighter. RT and another




I don't think so in play, particularly because you have to pick 1 ability, it is concentration, only lasts 1 hour and you might have passed many of those checks anyway and a few of them you might fail with advantage.

Further this is not typically considered a great spell generally and a caster is using a lot more of their daily resources to use it than a fighter is with tactical mind.



If you are playing stupid and using it for healing sure. Purposely wasting resources when you don't need to is not a reflection on the power of that resource.

If you are playing like 2014 where healing potions require an action it is a different story.



Fighters are better than Rogues and Bards at skill checks in level 2-4 and you don't typically have nearly enough checks in a day for either of these classes to overcome the mathematical advantage offered by Tactical Mind.




Font of Inspiration is not online in tier 1 and a Bard can't use it on himself for a skill check.



Reliable Talent is better at easy checks, when it comes online later in the game




Ranger spells are not a match for Tactical Mind and at level 2-4 they do not have many of them.

Bard spells help a lot, especially later. I would still put them well behind fighters in tier 1 because of how limited Bard spells are and the resource cost for using them.

Enhance Ability for example is twice a day at 3rd level and 3 times a day at 4th level and you just blew your most powerful asset. Tactical Mind is the same number of uses with no short rests, more uses with any short rests at all and not nearly as big a resource cost generally as a caster's highest level slot.



At level 2-4 they are by far the best. No other class is close.

There are 18 skills and a Fighter and a Rogue have the same score in 16 of them. The only differentiator is the two skills the Rogue has expertise in and he needs a TON of checks for that +4 to beat the +1d10 the fighter can try on a failure.

Part of this is the mathematical advantage offered by the larger number. Expertise is a passive ability that you do not use, but it only has a 20% chance of mattering on any roll. 80% of the rolls in tier 2 for a fighter with no proficiency and a Rogue with expertise will get the same result BEFORE a fighter even has to bring up try Tactical Mind.

Without TM in tier 1 there is only one check in five the Rogue with expertise will succeed on a check that the fighter without proficiency will fail with the same ability score. When the Rogue passes a check with expertise that the fighter would fail (20% of all checks), there is still an 85% chance the fighter can roll on tactical mind and also pass the check, additionally there is a 10.5% chance the Rogue will fail a check with expertise and the fighter without proficiency will succeed with the same d20 roll, and if he doesn't succeed he has the same result but does not use resource.

You need a lot of rolls for the Rogue to overcome this mathematical advantage and do better than the fighter on a majority of checks for the day, at least 5 checks in a day in a skill he is an expert in with no short rests at all, and it is more than that if you get any short rests.

There is a base 27.5% chance that tactical mind is used on any skill check (assuming DC greater than 1+ability+10 and less than 20+ability+1), so you need to attempt it almost 4 times to use it once on average.

For example 3rd level Rogue with 10 Intelligence, 10 Wisdom expertise in Perception and Investigation (+4) vs Fighter with no proficiency (+0) vs DC15 Investigation or Perception making multiple checks with no short rests at all

Chance they make the 1st perception or investigation check: Fighter 58%, Rogue 50%
Chance they make 2nd perception or investigation check: Fighter 58%, Rogue 50%
Chance they make the 3rd perception or investigation check: Fighter 55%, Rogue 50%
Chance they make the 4th perception or Investigation check: Fighter 53%, Rogue 50%.
Chance they make the 5th perception or Investivation Check: Fighter 49% Rogue 50%

At this point the Rogue is going to be better at checks he is an expert in for the rest of the day, but the fighter has been better up until this point going against the Rogues best two skills. Through the first 5 checks the Rogue on average succeeds on 2.5 of them and the fighter succeeds on 2.73 and this is with no short rests.

I used DC 15 and +4 for expertise to make the math easy, but the comparison is the same over a wide variation, it takes more than 5 checks with expertise for the Rogue to catch up to 2 uses of TM.

At the other 16 skills in the game, they have the same score/

I was working on point by point rebuttals, but it became lengthy so I'll just point to a few things.

Your math isn't wrong but how you're applying it is flawed. There's an inherent conflict between applying the law of large numbers and ignoring those same large numbers outside of the very limited number of uses of tactical mind from second wind. It's not practical in play and the swing of both dice makes that chance erratic in the 2 times the fighter can use it before taking a short rest. In practical play, on the other hand, it's very easy for a player to use skills with expertise dozens of times in a hour if that player wishes.

The ability to take an action that triggers the use of a skill the player has chosen in which to become an expert is within the agency of the player. If I take expertise in stealth I'm going to try and use that skill as often as possible, which is why I took it. If I take expertise in persuasion I'm going to try and use that skill as often as possible, which is why I took it. If I take... etc.

15 DC is the most common DC and good to bench against, and players playing to their chosen skills with that player agency having +3 ability score bonus and +2 proficiency bonus against that DC is 10% lower than the same bonus with expertise, which is in turn 17% lower than the fighter using the tactical mind bonus. Tactical mind is only a 7% better bonus over expertise than expertise is over proficiency at those levels under those assumptions even when we do accept those averages.

Bards, ranger, and rogues not only have expertise but also an extra skill proficiency or two over the fighter to apply.

Tactical mind is a great bonus. There is no disagreement here. But when you talk about limited resources it is the limited resource. A person cannot claim spell slots are a limited resource and ignore that second wind is a more limited resource, and a person also cannot compare the number of uses of second wind to spell slots as if they are equal either.

I never claimed rangers were the best. I did claim that they have spell support. An example of this in play is the jump spell. This is a good spell at those levels. One jump spell over three rounds is one spell slot used three times when the fighter in that range can use tactical mind on an athletics check twice and still not keep up, and then be out of uses while jump is maintained.

Tactical mind only applies to a single roll. It does change a failure to a success when it works but still isn't guaranteed to work, and it still will only apply to a single roll, and will still be very limited in the number of uses. Cantrips and rituals don't use resource, and spell slots apply to more than single rolls.

The problem with enhance ability is that it's a second level spell slot for advantage when the help action can create advantage without resources anyway. The benefit of enhance ability is that it also applies to many rolls and doesn't require someone giving up their action for that advantage, and it can be applied to checks where the help action might not be able to. No matter how a person looks at it, an hour of advantage is more then the two uses of tactical mind.

Bards at those levels have the extra skill, expertise, and jack of all trades without the resource use. They also have the spells that may or may not include applicable cantrips or rituals that don't have that resource use, and they have access to spells that leverage multiple actions instead of single actions for more efficient resource use.

In addition to that, bards might not use bardic inspiration on themselves but they do give it to the person with the best bonus and that's better than the fighter using tactical mind on themselves with a poor base bonus.

Fighters have a good bonus on a very limited number of uses, but bards have the strongest overall set of abilities at these levels.

Moving into tier two the increased bardic inspiration die and font of inspiration becomes a better resource than tactical mind regardless of the bard's other skill benefits or spell support.

Reliable talent doesn't increase the ceiling of the rolls, no, but bounded accuracy already does that so it's moot. There's no need for bigger rolls to increase the chance of success. Using the same assumptions when reliable talent comes online the fighter using tactical mind has a 90% chance on those 15 DC checks but a rogue with expertise has 100% chance on 20 DC checks. +4 ability score +6 proficiency with a minimum of 10 on the d20 if much better than a d10 bonus, +4 ability score bonus, and +3 proficiency check on those 20 DC checks that gives a 68% chance to succeed. That's the power of eliminating low d20 rolls.

Of course, I know better than to trust those averages given the sample size, and you should too. ;-)

note: percentages are rounded
 
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I was working on point by point rebuttals, but it became lengthy so I'll just point to a few things.

Your math isn't wrong but how you're applying it is flawed. There's an inherent conflict between applying the law of large numbers and ignoring those same large numbers outside of the very limited number of uses of tactical mind from second wind. It's not practical in play and the swing of both dice makes that chance erratic in the 2 times the fighter can use it before taking a short rest. In practical play, on the other hand, it's very easy for a player to use skills with expertise dozens of times in a hour if that player wishes.

I am not ignoring it and they are not "very limited" because the resource is only used on a sucess.

The ability to take an action that triggers the use of a skill the player has chosen in which to become an expert is within the agency of the player.

So stealth is a bit misleading because a Rogue at 2nd level can use a bonus action to hide. So they can and do use it regularly in combat without using an action.

You are talking about 1 skill out of 18 here, so saying the Rogue is "better at skills" is not nearly the same as saying the Rogue is better at stealth because he can do it as a bonus action. I will concede that a Rogue is better at hiding specifically than a Fighter and he is better regardless of proficiency and largely regardless of dexterity due to the different action cost, but that is different than being better at skills.

Further, if as you say actually look at only actions specifically; only when the Rogue uses an action to hide compared to when a fighter uses an action to hide (all the time for the fighter). I think it is uncommon that a Rogue will do an action stealth check enough times for the steady state +4 to be mathematically more effective than the +1-10 with no use consumed unless it turns successs into a fail. At 2nd level, assuming a 16 Dex on both PCs and no short rests you need to take more than 5 actions to hide to do better than the fighter on the day, I don't think that is very common and that number goes up at 4th level and it goes up with any short rests.

If I take expertise in persuasion I'm going to try and use that skill as often as possible, which is why I took it. If I take... etc.

With expertise in persuasion, although you may try, I don't think you will commonly use it enough to actually outrun a fighter in play

Also this works both ways - With tactical mind I am going to try a lot of checks in all 18 skills because I took the fighter class.

15 DC is the most common DC and good to bench against, and players playing to their chosen skills with that player agency having +3 ability score bonus and +2 proficiency bonus against that DC is 10% lower than the same bonus with expertise, which is in turn 17% lower than the fighter using the tactical mind bonus.
Tactical mind is only a 7% better bonus over expertise than expertise is over proficiency at those levels under those assumptions even when we do accept those averages.

And expertise is only a 10% bonus over proficiency. Moreover that 7% comes into play on every check until all the uses of Tactical Mind are used up and at DC 15 that is going to be 4 checks on average to burn one use. The expected check is the 8th skill check that the fighter rolls that will use up his 2nd Tactical Mind (with a DC15). So the most common outcome is that there are 8 checks the fighter was 7% ahead of the Rogue for each of those checks (i.e. 8 times)

Now when considering who is better for the day, you have to include the chance that the Fighter will actually use TM quicker, because while a Fighter is 7% better until all TM uses are used up, in fact when looking at it statistically it is not correct to bias the Fighter 7% for 8 straight checks because 7% assumes a use is available, which there is a chance it is not available starting at check 3. So it is 7% for the first two and then it goes down from there.

What you end up with is 5 checks is the crossover point. The 5th check is statistically where the Rogue starts doing better than the fighter overall. That is assuming expertise for the Rogue and assuming no short rests.


Bards, ranger, and rogues not only have expertise but also an extra skill proficiency or two over the fighter to apply.

No they don't

In tier 1 Rogues and Fighters are both proficient in 4 skills. Rogues additionally have expertise in 2 skills.

I am focusing on the skills with expertise because in the other 16 skills they are exactly the same (or 17 in the case of Ranger).

And yes, a fighter can use TM on any of those 16 skills that they are the same in, or on an ability check that is not a skill, but the fighter is already the equal to a Rogue on 16 of 18 skills, so from a mathematical point of view that is not relevant. You could argue that in play the Fighter is going to use TM earlier on some other skill, so the Rogue will play better in his narrow focus area of 2 skills, but then you are saying the fighter is better at almost all the skills and all non-skill ability checks except those two specific skills the Rogue chooses to be an expert in.

Tactical mind is a great bonus. There is no disagreement here. But when you talk about limited resources it is the limited resource.
A person cannot claim spell slots are a limited resource and ignore that second wind is a more limited resource, and a person also cannot compare the number of uses of second wind to spell slots as if they are equal either.

At level 2-4 it is not a more limited resource than a 2nd level slot, it is a FAR more plentiful resource.

If you cast a spell and do not use a spell slot that spell slot then that resource is not used. Same with Tacitcal Mind, if you use Tactical Mind and do not turn a failure into a success then that resource is not used.

In most cases spell slots are used regardless of success or failure, it is not so with Tactical Mind. So when talking about how limited it is, you need to consider the chance the resource is used up. Withe a reasonable/normal DC it will take 4 skill checks to burn a single use of tactical mind with a 0 skill bonus. So 2 uses of tactical tactical mind goes A LOT further than 2 2nd level slots.

I never claimed rangers were the best. I did claim that they have spell support. An example of this in play is the jump spell. This is a good spell at those levels. One jump spell over three rounds is one spell slot used three times when the fighter in that range can use tactical mind on an athletics check twice and still not keep up, and then be out of uses while jump is maintained.

Jump is not typically used for skill checks in the games I have played, nor are there typically 3 athletics checks in 3 consecutive rounds unless you are trying to escape a grapple and failing.

Tactical mind only applies to a single roll.

Not true


It does change a failure to a success when it works but still isn't guaranteed to work, and it still will only apply to a single roll, and will still be very limited in the number of uses.

It always changes a failure to a success if you use the resource. So yes from a resource perspective each use of Tactical Mind is guaranteed to work.

If I have 2 uses of Tactical Mind, never take short rests use both of those resources, I will guaranteed turn 2 failures into successes.

This is why your discussion on resources is flawed. Tactical Mind does not make every check a success. Neither does enhance ability, guidance, expertise or anything else. But every resource used on tactical mind does make a check a success.

Cantrips and rituals don't use resource, and spell slots apply to more than single rolls.

As I stated above, Guidance comes closer than anything else in the game to matching tactical mind in terms of power on skill checks in level 1.

I think the concentration and limiting it to a single ability make it less flexible, but it is the only thing that is typically going to be in play nearly as often in tier 1.


The problem with enhance ability is that it's a second level spell slot for advantage when the help action can create advantage without resources anyway. The benefit of enhance ability is that it also applies to many rolls and doesn't require someone giving up their action for that advantage, and it can be applied to checks where the help action might not be able to. No matter how a person looks at it, an hour of advantage is more then the two uses of tactical mind.

No it is generally less most of the time I look at it. It can be more, but I think that is rare that you will get enough checks in an hour to overcome the advantage offered by Tactical Mind. Not impossible, not unheard of, but not common IMO.

Bards at those levels have the extra skill, expertise, and jack of all trades without the resource use.

They have one less skill they have base proficiency in and two more they have expertise in.

They do have a +1 across the board on the other skills, so they are +1 better in 15 skills, -1 worse in one skill and +4 better in 2 skills.

They also have the spells that may or may not include applicable cantrips or rituals that don't have that resource use, and they have access to spells that leverage multiple actions instead of single actions for more efficient resource use.

Sure they have spells, the ones that are effective on skill checks are far more costly in terms of resources.

I think I covered all the Cantrips and 1st and 2nd level spells in the game that can be used for skill checks above. I may have missed a few.


In addition to that, bards might not use bardic inspiration on themselves but they do give it to the person with the best bonus

You mean give it to the fighter? Yes, the Bard in the party makes the Fighter in the party even better at skill checks than he already is .... and if you want the most likelihood of passing checks at this level, that is who the inspiration should go to for most skill checks.

There are some cases where the fighter has a low ability and another PC has a high one and expertise and in those cases those other PCs are better, but you are talking about a couple skills out of 18 that someone else is better in with Bardic Inspiration.

and that's better than the fighter using tactical mind on themselves with a poor base bonus.

Better than what?

If you are using Standarad Array the Fighters numbers are pretty good in terms of skill checks, better than most classes and better generally than a standard array Rogue in my opinion. The 8 Charisma and 10 Wisdom really hurt a Standard Array Rogue when it comes to being a skill monkey.

If you are using point buy every PC gets the same number of points to spend, so it is all the same.

If you are rolling, well then luck is the deciding factor in the base number.

This is not an argument that the Rogue is better than a fighter, if anything it is an argument they are worse generally because their standard array is worse.

Fighters have a good bonus on a very limited number of uses, but bards have the strongest overall set of abilities at these levels.

Fighters are going to be better at skill checks generally than Bards and far more uses than Bards have spell slots.

Moving into tier two the increased bardic inspiration die and font of inspiration becomes a better resource than tactical mind regardless of the bard's other skill benefits or spell support.

Tier 2 is different because now Tactical Mind actually becomes a much more limited resource as there is something else effective to use it on (Tactical Shift) and unlike Tactical Mind, Tactical Shift does use a resource every time you use it.

While the Fighter still has TM available though, the best use of BI for skill checks is still usually going to be the fighter. In some cases Reliable Talent can make the Rogue better, but most of the time across most skills the fighter is who you are going to want to give Inspiration to in tier 2 if he still has Tactical Mind available.


Reliable talent doesn't increase the ceiling of the rolls, no, but bounded accuracy already does that so it's moot. There's no need for bigger rolls to increase the chance of success. Using the same assumptions when reliable talent comes online the fighter using tactical mind has a 90% chance on those 15 DC checks but a rogue with expertise has 100% chance on 20 DC checks.

100% chance on DC 20 on up to 4 out of 18 skills but only if he also has a +4 Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma and expertise in the skills to match that 18 ability.

In the other 14 skills a Rogue has a lower chance of making a DC 20 than a fighter with the same ability score and tactical mind available and he has a lower chance of making a DC 15 check in at least 12 of those 14 skills (with the same abilities).

As I said clearly above, 2 more Expertises and Reliable Talent close the gap quite a bit.

There is a reason I am focused on level 2-4 and that reason is these are the levels where Fighters are way ahead. They are not way ahead after this. They are still good, and ahead of Rangers I think all the way to level 20, but they are not ahead of Rogues at the very top of tier 2, or most full casters for that matter.
 
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In tier 1 Rogues and Fighters are both proficient in 4 skills.
I believe you are mistaken.

Fighters get two skills from class, rogues get four. Add in background and fighters have four, rogues have six.

Fighter
Core Fighter Traits
Primary Ability Strength or Dexterity
Hit Point Die D10 per Fighter level
Saving Throw Proficiencies
Strength and Constitution
Skill Proficiencies Choose 2: Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, Perception, or Survival

Core Rogue Traits
Primary Ability Dexterity
Hit Point Die D8 per Rogue level
Saving Throw Proficiencies
Dexterity and Intelligence
Skill Proficiencies Choose 4: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth
 

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