• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

What videogames are you playing in 2025?

It's also not for nothing that when the Rare play pack came out in 2015 folks were disappointed when it didn't include Goldeneye, along with the numerous times folks asked for a remaster/remake/updated version. I need to up my Nintendo sub,so i can play it online and slap people at the knees with oddjob.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Bottom line Goldeneye was #3 selling all time N64 after Mario.
Sure, but if that's how it works, how well-selling a game is, we should note that #3 on N64 is like #300 of "all games" if that - it might be much further back given we fairly often see indie games sell several million copies.

I mean, if we look at the list of "best selling videogames" on Wikipedia, we see it basically cuts off at 28m copies, which is almost more than the number of N64s that were ever in existence. Goldeneye sold 8m copies. Extremely high for N64, I agree. But like Crash Bandicoot 2 sold nearly that many copies on PS1.

So I feel like that's kind of countering your own argument.

What the cultural significance here is that Goldeneye showed for the first time a FPS can be wildly successful to the point of being worth doing instead of leaving to PC.
I personally don't think that was something that needed to be proved! If it was, I don't understand why people were churning out so many FPS for consoles since long before Goldeneye, and why there wasn't really any increase after it did? And there weren't Goldeneye imitators - which I actually think is surprising and significant. It's rare a game that successful doesn't spawn imitators. If anything it's kind of noteworthy that Goldeneye didn't catch o with game designers.

Whereas Halo's success (and it didn't even initially sell as many copies as Goldeneye) absolutely did have very rapid impacts on the industry as people started trying to make their own Halos.

I do agree that this idea that Goldeneye "cleared the way" for later console FPSes was something a lot of Millennial game journos claimed in the 2010s though. It's not an uncommon or weird idea. I just don't think it's one that can be supported by the facts, if we look at what released and when. I think rather it was early, successful, and cool, but like, it's a Dimetrodon of games, an evolutionary dead end.

I guess Dimetrodon is in museums not because it was successful or genuinely important but because it was cool-looking and memorable, so maybe on that ground Goldeneye should be in lol? Maybe I've argued myself around?

fact tsunami
EDIT: Don't read all this and then complain you were bored, just skip it if it's going to bore you lol!

I think facts matter a huge amount, and I just don't think it's okay to ignore facts when making arguments about history (or the present day). I feel pretty depressed by how much we disregard facts today in favour of vibes, and I have to say, me carefully attempting to marshal the facts being called a "fact tsunami" as if it was a disaster and you saying I'm only doing it to "win" not because I care about the facts is sad to me. Makes me want wonder if I should just join the zeitgeist and go full vibes, screw what actually is true. It would certainly be hugely easier lol.

The reason I care about this, specifically, is that history of videogames has been massively rewritten in very inaccurate ways (and further, ones that are easily shown to be inaccurate) by a lot of Millennial and younger games journalists and writers, specifically American ones, who have a produced warped and deeply Nintendo-centric vision of the history of games, which tends to disregard PC games almost entirely from the mid-1980s until the late '90s at earliest, and completely disregards everything that happened in Europe or the rest of the world, with the exception of Japan, but Japan is only remembered when it's convenient, and when it mattered to Americans. Sony consoles sell insane numbers, have huge impact worldwide, the games on those are far more widely played, but the same journalists continue to act like only Nintendo, or later Xbox (the original and 360) and PC matter.

It's a bit like the "great man" theory of history too, because the journos and writers I'm referring to tend to act like every change in the industry has to be down to one pivotal game, completely ignoring the fact in most cases, big changes had been happening across the industry for years before one game exemplified them, rather than being causative of those changes. That's not to say single-point causation doesn't happen - it absolutely does. But the way history is being written, everything is single-point causation, there's a never a pre-existing trend, and that's very obviously untrue, but because it makes a better story, it's what people say.

And because this is a museum of games, it peeves me a bit that they're not prioritizing history/fact, they're seemingly prioritizing stories.

(Now I will note that there is a post-modern and post-colonial take on historiography which is that all history and for that matter archaeology is just stories, essentially nothing is true, there are no facts, that science itself is basically a story/lie, and so on. But despite this theory emerging from from post-modern progressives anti-colonialists, it's actually most popular with the extremist far-right, for what I think are probably obvious reasons. The far-right British philosopher Roger Scruton was particularly fond of the idea that the facts of history should be disregarded in favour of good stories.)

Sorry for all the waffle, no-one has to read it all lol but you got me thinking!
 

Multiplayer deathmatches and the like were feasible in older PC games like Doom and Quake II but they were largely afterthoughts.
This is true for Doom but I'm afraid it's simply false for Quake and Quake II.

I don't know how to argue further than that - the developers themselves were pretty clear - Quake and Quake II were designed with multiplayer combat in mind much more than they were with single-player campaigns. That's why the weapons in both games (especially Quake) are actually clunky for the single-player mode, but are absolutely brilliant for the multiplayer mode.

Quake III being campaign-less had nothing to do with Goldeneye (which notably had a campaign, and with mechanics that weren't used in MP), which wasn't even on people's radar at the time, it was entirely because Quake/Quake II were insanely popular online, with countless thousands of people playing - the main reason people were buying Quake/Quake II was because of multiplayer, not the campaign.
 

Sure, but if that's how it works, how well-selling a game is, we should note that #3 on N64 is like #300 of "all games" if that - it might be much further back given we fairly often see indie games sell several million copies.

I mean, if we look at the list of "best selling videogames" on Wikipedia, we see it basically cuts off at 28m copies, which is almost more than the number of N64s that were ever in existence. Goldeneye sold 8m copies. Extremely high for N64, I agree. But like Crash Bandicoot 2 sold nearly that many copies on PS1.

So I feel like that's kind of countering your own argument.


I personally don't think that was something that needed to be proved! If it was, I don't understand why people were churning out so many FPS for consoles since long before Goldeneye, and why there wasn't really any increase after it did? And there weren't Goldeneye imitators - which I actually think is surprising and significant. It's rare a game that successful doesn't spawn imitators. If anything it's kind of noteworthy that Goldeneye didn't catch o with game designers.

Whereas Halo's success (and it didn't even initially sell as many copies as Goldeneye) absolutely did have very rapid impacts on the industry as people started trying to make their own Halos.

I do agree that this idea that Goldeneye "cleared the way" for later console FPSes was something a lot of Millennial game journos claimed in the 2010s though. It's not an uncommon or weird idea. I just don't think it's one that can be supported by the facts, if we look at what released and when. I think rather it was early, successful, and cool, but like, it's a Dimetrodon of games, an evolutionary dead end.

I guess Dimetrodon is in museums not because it was successful or genuinely important but because it was cool-looking and memorable, so maybe on that ground Goldeneye should be in lol? Maybe I've argued myself around?


EDIT: Don't read all this and then complain you were bored, just skip it if it's going to bore you lol!

I think facts matter a huge amount, and I just don't think it's okay to ignore facts when making arguments about history (or the present day). I feel pretty depressed by how much we disregard facts today in favour of vibes, and I have to say, me carefully attempting to marshal the facts being called a "fact tsunami" as if it was a disaster and you saying I'm only doing it to "win" not because I care about the facts is sad to me. Makes me want wonder if I should just join the zeitgeist and go full vibes, screw what actually is true. It would certainly be hugely easier lol.

The reason I care about this, specifically, is that history of videogames has been massively rewritten in very inaccurate ways (and further, ones that are easily shown to be inaccurate) by a lot of Millennial and younger games journalists and writers, specifically American ones, who have a produced warped and deeply Nintendo-centric vision of the history of games, which tends to disregard PC games almost entirely from the mid-1980s until the late '90s at earliest, and completely disregards everything that happened in Europe or the rest of the world, with the exception of Japan, but Japan is only remembered when it's convenient, and when it mattered to Americans. Sony consoles sell insane numbers, have huge impact worldwide, the games on those are far more widely played, but the same journalists continue to act like only Nintendo, or later Xbox (the original and 360) and PC matter.

It's a bit like the "great man" theory of history too, because the journos and writers I'm referring to tend to act like every change in the industry has to be down to one pivotal game, completely ignoring the fact in most cases, big changes had been happening across the industry for years before one game exemplified them, rather than being causative of those changes. That's not to say single-point causation doesn't happen - it absolutely does. But the way history is being written, everything is single-point causation, there's a never a pre-existing trend, and that's very obviously untrue, but because it makes a better story, it's what people say.

And because this is a museum of games, it peeves me a bit that they're not prioritizing history/fact, they're seemingly prioritizing stories.

(Now I will note that there is a post-modern and post-colonial take on historiography which is that all history and for that matter archaeology is just stories, essentially nothing is true, there are no facts, that science itself is basically a story/lie, and so on. But despite this theory emerging from from post-modern progressives anti-colonialists, it's actually most popular with the extremist far-right, for what I think are probably obvious reasons. The far-right British philosopher Roger Scruton was particularly fond of the idea that the facts of history should be disregarded in favour of good stories.)

Sorry for all the waffle, no-one has to read it all lol but you got me thinking!
I appreciate your knowledge in these discussions and think facts are important too, but there reached a point where an opinion can be a discussion without devolving into a debate team exercise.

Many of the fact corrections are out of context in a sweeping attempt to fact dunk on the opinion to make it seem completely and inarguably incorrect. Taking a figurative point and going at it literally isn’t s fair or constructive approach.

Particularly your beef is with a historical view of cultural impact that you feel doesn’t adhere to facts but pop culture rarely does. If you want to argue the cultural aspect should be removed from the historical piece, sure let’s discuss that. Though let’s naturally get there instead of trying to bulldoze me over for being wrong.
 

The legacy of Goldeneye is twofold: (a) proving FPS could be wildly successful on home consoles, and (b) the enduring popularity of the FPS deathmatch. Multiplayer deathmatches and the like were feasible in older PC games like Doom and Quake II but they were largely afterthoughts. Two years after Goldeneye, Quake III Arena came out without even having a single-player campaign at all, same with Unreal Tournament. Two years later we get Halo.

Like, it's important to note that while Turok could be called successful, it was not Goldeneye successful, being outsold by the latter by a factor of over 5. Turok had solid reviews but it was nothing, at the time, compared to Goldeneye. Doom 64 is a game we can look back on fondly but it was not particularly well-received at the time, and did not crack a million sales (to Turok's 1.5 and Goldeneye's 8 million, respectively).

To speak to a few other points; most contemporary reviews rated the shooting gameplay in Goldeneye to be the best on the console by far, even accounting for those earlier releases, but personal preference is a thing. Also, for a fun fact, Turok was also an adaptation, from a comic series that's only about a year-and-a-half younger than James Bond.

Edit: I did not own nor particularly wanted to own a N64, I hated the weird three-handed controller, so I don't really have a horse in this race, beyond stating the historical record. I think Goldeneye is obviously a fine entry to the Hall of Fame; its lasting legacy is fairly self-evident. The Space War/Computer Space/Asteroids trifecta is honestly the most glaring oddity to the list; like eventually you're going to get Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World too but there's a lot of gaps out there to cover first.

Apropos of absolutely nothing, my favorite Doom 64 mention came via Tim Rogers in his review three-and-a-half-hour video essay on Final Fantasy VII Remake, where he referred to the Chapter 6 dungeon as having "all the grace and symmetry of two Doom 64 levels stapled together (I say that as a compliment!)"
I think the trick with Goldeneye is that it tread ground none had. That is it had an engaging story and single player mode that followed a popular action film. Turok was also a step in this direction but James Bond was the IP to transcend genre and bring folks to the FPS beyond PC gamers and endless deathmatchers.
 

This is true for Doom but I'm afraid it's simply false for Quake and Quake II.

I don't know how to argue further than that - the developers themselves were pretty clear - Quake and Quake II were designed with multiplayer combat in mind much more than they were with single-player campaigns. That's why the weapons in both games (especially Quake) are actually clunky for the single-player mode, but are absolutely brilliant for the multiplayer mode.

Quake III being campaign-less had nothing to do with Goldeneye (which notably had a campaign, and with mechanics that weren't used in MP), which wasn't even on people's radar at the time, it was entirely because Quake/Quake II were insanely popular online, with countless thousands of people playing - the main reason people were buying Quake/Quake II was because of multiplayer, not the campaign.
Quake II didn't even ship with multiplayer maps. They were added later in a patch. I don't know how much more "afterthought" you can get. And while I don't doubt that both games were popular, it's also worth bearing that PC gaming landscape was not as large as console gaming was at that time, and any perception that it was at the time comes down to confirmation bias. The best-selling PC game before Goldeneye's release was Myst, which sold 6 million copies, notably less than the 3rd best selling game on a single home console at the time. Notably, 1997 also saw the release of the top-selling Playstation 1 games of all time: Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy VII, which both topped 10 million. Meanwhile, Doom sold around 2 million and Quake 1 & 2 taking years to top one million.

I'm not saying this to discount the enormous impact of Doom and Quake, but to claim Goldeneye didn't have any real impact and its importance is being overinflated due to some generationally-driven revisionism, I guess?, is quite frankly ahistorical. It was the big deal then. And it remained a big deal for a long time. It was not just some passing fad that people ultimately forgot about. If anything, that's Turok.

Look, I was there too. I grew up with Mario Bros on the family NES and Doom on the family computer. I was there for Thief and Half-Life and Dues Ex (all also, meanwhile, notable games worth of inclusion) just like I was there for Final Fantasy VII and Goldeneye, the latter being one of the only N64 I would ever bother to play. I don't need to be told that PC games were, by and large, better, in the era where that mattered. But that doesn't diminish the incredibly important place that console gaming held in the overall cultural landscape, nor does it change the fact that console gaming was simply bigger than PC gaming at the time, at times by several magnitudes (the Super Nintendo sales figures are ridiculous), and thus had an outsized influence in the direction that gaming went.

You're not wrong about the American-centric bias, though. Reading or watching mid-00's American games journalism about anything to do with Japan is absolutely horrific to watch these days.
 

Like, I think it's worth noting that for every one person who has played Doom, there are at least three, maybe four who have played Goldeneye.
 
Last edited:


Like, I think it's worth noting that for everyone one person who has played Doom, there are at least three, maybe four who have played Goldeneye.
Yeap, my experience with them was so funny to me. Being a PC gamer I had experience with FPS games from wolfenstein to Quake.

I remember the first non-pc gamer friend to get goldeneye. That first night they were like “what the hell is this?” They were blown away as madden and Mario players That first night my experience made me feel like a god as I dropped them again and again. 3 months later I was lucky to get a kill.
 

(Now I will note that there is a post-modern and post-colonial take on historiography which is that all history and for that matter archaeology is just stories, essentially nothing is true, there are no facts, that science itself is basically a story/lie, and so on. But despite this theory emerging from from post-modern progressives anti-colonialists, it's actually most popular with the extremist far-right, for what I think are probably obvious reasons. The far-right British philosopher Roger Scruton was particularly fond of the idea that the facts of history should be disregarded in favour of good stories.)

Sorry for all the waffle, no-one has to read it all lol but you got me thinking!
you should make a very long footnoted post about it in a thread that's dedicated to the topic then make a YT video about it. You seem passionate enough and since it's the internet I'm sure you'd get a ton of likes for it.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top