D&D 5E (2024) How do you rule using a Hand Crossbow with a nick weapon

[Plaguescarred]

Yes but BOTH of these characters need to have their other hand free in order to load the crossbow, per the ammunition property.

Correct because they don't have the Crossbow Expert feat they would indeed need a free hand to load an ammunition. It's even the reason why the second example needs the character to unequip the first Hand Crossbow.

 

[Charlaquin]

I completely agree with that. And yet ....

There is a fundamental issue ... a divide ... going on. I don't want to get jargon-y, so I'll put it like this...

On the one side, you have people who think that the rules are all that matter. Which can be okay, but taken to an extreme, it leads to "D&D as videogame." In other words, whatever you can dream up to take advantage of the rules is totally fine, even if it makes "no sense"* at all.

On the other side, you have people who think that the rules are just some of the agreed-upon framework to allow the RPG to happen. In other words, rules will always be somewhat "game-y" (because it is a game, and because it is an approximation) but they are still trying to get an approximation of playing in some actual ... world.

As an individual, I fall on the latter side. As someone who, um, likes rules, I try to interpret rules based on the former side. But as a DM ... I have to deal with both sides. Because players comes in all kinds.

In my experience, there isn't much of an issue with someone trying to make a cool concept work within the rules- because I can always work with them to make it work- either through re-skinning or adjusting the rules. As I said before, if someone pitched a concept of a character that dual-wielded handcrossbows, I'd work with them to make it happen! Because if they thought that was cool, I'm sure it would be. The rules are there to try (and usually fail) to prevent people abusing them- but they shouldn't prevent players from having a good time with the character they want.

And the little persnickety rules of the action economy just do not matter for 98% of the players. Other than the occasional reminder that you ONLY GET ONE BONUS ACTION, DEREK!!!!! Ahem. But the reason that they are there, and they need to be parsed, is because that people will parse them to try and eek out every possible benefit they can, even if it means that they are carrying around 20 weapons so that they can drop and equip and juggle them at all moments.

Personally, I think that the rules are interesting to read, because I like to read and interpret rules. But ... I haven't had to utilize restrictions on "weapon juggling" because no one at my table does that. I think that if they did, we would have to discuss what they want from the game.



*This can always be a point of dispute, of course. What makes "no sense" to a person assuming a relatively "grounded and gritty" fantasy game is different than someone assuming a "wuxia and superheroes" fantasy game.

I’m not sure I agree with that dichotomy.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I’m not sure I agree with that dichotomy.

There are only two types of people in the world.

1. Those that believe people can be separated into arbitrary groups.
2. Those that believe people are people, and I can't understand what makes a man hate another man
3. The innumerate.

 

[Rainbow Scissors]

Sure I can picture it, but that is not RAW. RAW he needs a free hand to load a piece of ammunition.

Slings and holsters exist.

Shoot
Drop (no action)
Shoot
Reload
Draw

 

[ECMO3]

nm

 

[ECMO3]

Slings and holsters exist.

Shoot
Drop (no action)
Shoot
Reload
Draw

Slings and holsters have no mechanics associated with them. They don't change anything.

Reload is part of shoot, not a separate activity and drop is not free, it has to be part of an attack or an interaction in the 2024 rules.

RAW he can not shoot the first crossbow if he has something in his other hand. He loads a piece of ammunition into it as part of the attack, and he needs a free hand to do that.

 

[Peter BOSCO'S]

How do we know that the rules are assuming that you have only two arms? They don't say that they do, and you might be a Thri-kreen. What if there are shenanigans you can pull off that are not forbidden by the rules, but are impossible if you have only two arms?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Slings and holsters have no mechanics associated with them. They don't change anything.

Reload is part of shoot, not a separate activity and drop is not free, it has to be part of an attack or an interaction in the 2024 rules.

So RAW you can't load ammo into your crossbow...

RAW he can not shoot the first crossbow if he has something in his other hand. He loads a piece of ammunition into it as part of the attack, and he needs a free hand to do that.

RAW is not a law. And you seem to confuse RAW with TRDSYC.

Just because the rules don't say you can't load a crossbow beforehand does not mean it is impossible.
Just because the rules say you need a free hand to reload a crossbow before shooting does not mean that you can't load a crossbow before.

A clear logic fail.

 

[ECMO3]

So RAW you can't load ammo into your crossbow...

No. Can you load ammo into your Longbow ahead of time and then walk around with a "loaded" Longbow held in one hand?

The bolt would fall off the rail if you put it into a holster, or let it hang from a sling or for that matter if you did anything other than hold it up and concentrate on carefully balancing it.

This argument makes logical sense for guns and perhaps slings and blowguns, but not crossbows or bows and just because it makes logical sense does not make it RAW even for those weapons where it is logical.

Just because the rules don't say you can't load a crossbow beforehand does not mean it is impossible.

The rules do say that loading the crossbow is part of the attack and a free hand is needed to do it.

What you are suggesting is that a free hand is not required if the crossbow is loaded ahead of time, out of combat. The rules do not support that interpretation. The rules say loading the crossbow IS part of the attack and that does make sense.

Just because the rules say you need a free hand to reload a crossbow before shooting does not mean that you can't load a crossbow before.

The rules say you need to load it when you make an attack with it, not before shooting.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No. Can you load ammo into your Longbow ahead of time and then walk around with a "loaded" Longbow held in one hand?

Two handed weapon. But yes, you can do that with (a modern) bow easily.

The bolt would fall off the rail if you put it into a holster, or let it hang from a sling or for that matter if you did anything other than hold it up and concentrate on carefully balancing it.

No, the bolt does not fall of if you don't balance it carefully. Or do you disallow shooting from an elevated position at someone below you?
That is also not RAW.
Hint: (not Children) Crossbows have a metal thingy that locks the bolt in place.

This argument makes logical sense for guns and perhaps slings and blowguns, but not crossbows or bows and just because it makes logical sense does not make it RAW even for those weapons where it is logical.

Have fun playing that way.

The rules do say that loading the crossbow is part of the attack and a free hand is needed to do it.

No, it says drawing ammunition is part of the attack. If you interpret it as "ammunition must be drawn", then yes. But it can also be read as "ammunition can be drawn".

What you are suggesting is that a free hand is not required if the crossbow is loaded ahead of time, out of combat. The rules do not support that interpretation. The rules say loading the crossbow IS part of the attack and that does make sense.

No, it does not.

The rules say you need to load it when you make an attack with it, not before shooting.

Again, have fun that way.