Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That has been my main issue in finding an OSR system that works for me: none match my groups' play.
We came in with Post Hickman Revolution 2E. Some say that OSR system is 5E ... which isn't helpful when you're trying to have a different experience than 5E provides.

Shadowdark and DCC and OSE are definitely aimed at a pre-Hickman era vibe, for sure.

 

[TwoSix]

That has been my main issue in finding an OSR system that works for me: none match my groups' play.
We came in with Post Hickman Revolution 2E. Some say that OSR system is 5E ... which isn't helpful when you're trying to have a different experience than 5E provides.

So you’re basically looking for heavy-story, moderate-combat trad play without the heavyweight character customization rules of 3e (and 5e to a lesser extent) but still with a decent amount of player-facing, rules mediated customization?

 

[Retreater]

So you’re basically looking for heavy-story, moderate-combat trad play without the heavyweight character customization rules of 3e (and 5e to a lesser extent) but still with a decent amount of player-facing, rules mediated customization?

That sounds about right.
Maybe that ends up being Daggerheart ... I did really enjoy running that as a one-shot recently.
The main issue is that it's not "trad play" (pretty different from D&D mechanically).

 

[TwoSix]

That sounds about right.
Maybe that ends up being Daggerheart ... I did really enjoy running that as a one-shot recently.
The main issue is that it's not "trad play" (pretty different from D&D mechanically).

Makes sense.

That combination is definitely a tasty stew that I think quite a few players want; unfortunately, no one can seem to agree exactly what ingredients go in the stew pot.

 

[wicked cool]

It’s very important for OSR style play (including Shadowdark) to emphasize that the point of play is to solve environmental puzzles. Rooms with monsters are simply another kind of puzzle to solve.

Any party that gets into head-to-head combat with a monster group without some kind of setup to give them advantage is in a fail state. Immediate combat is going to give a coin-flip chance of a TPK.

Not sure what you mean? That’s not my experience at all even with official content? The official one page dungeons don’t give any advantage to players?
It’s easier to determine challenge level but it’s relatively the same as 5e when it comes to encounters
A group of 6 kobolds at level 1 vs party of 4 is deadlier than 5 but it’s party makeup in both cases

 

[TwoSix]

Not sure what you mean? That’s not my experience at all even with official content? The official one page dungeons don’t give any advantage to players?
It’s easier to determine challenge level but it’s relatively the same as 5e when it comes to encounters
A group of 6 kobolds at level 1 vs party of 4 is deadlier than 5 but it’s party makeup in both cases

I’m unclear what game or type of game you think I mean.

I was explaining core concepts behind OSR games, specifically ones designed around Old School Primer and Principia principles.

 

[Retros_x]

And you rinse and repeat for a year. If that had been my game, I'd have rather played Diablo or HeroQuest.

This implies Shadowdark is a Hack n Slash, which its absolutely not.

In general it sounds like a mix of

a) bad/inexperienced DM
b) not understanding the system/not using it as intented (no reaction/morale rolls)
c) maybe a bad conversion of an adventure that was not written for shadowdark originally?

Something definitely went wrong because my games went completely different. A lot of roleplay and talking with creatures in the dungeon, lot of exploration and problem solving, not so much "roll for everything". And I had no TPK yet, only single character deaths. It is a deadly game, but not as crazy deadly as it was in your experience.

Some stuff your criticized is exactly like you say, the character build system is simple. Character building is not a gameplay core system. That is of course a design with intention, but if that is not to your taste, it can't be helped.

 

[Retros_x]

Even the official Cursed Scrolls material is pretty much "monster lair - kill the monsters."

No, the goal is rarely to kill a monster. The shadowdark (and OSR in general) intention is that the monsters are a danger/challenge to your mission which is not to kill monsters in most cases, but get treasure or reach a quest goal. Killing monster gives you 0 XP, so "kill the monsters" is not the default goal of a dungeon. If you try to kill all the monsters you are certainly reducing the survival chance of your character to a minimum. Avoiding combat should be the key goal for most players, thats why it sound absurd to me if you compare Shadowdark to a video game hack n slash like Diablo.

Not sure what you mean? That’s not my experience at all even with official content? The official one page dungeons don’t give any advantage to players?

That is the point, players are supposed to not just run in the room and fight the monsters, because the dungeons don't give any advantages to them. They are supposed to use actual problem solving skills to create an advantage situations for themselves. Or to reach their goal without killing the monsters.

I think the problem that both of you are having that you expect a modern D&D adventure design where the adventure spells it explicitly out if there are other solutions than combat. But the OSR approach is more like: Here is a situation, deal with it, the possible solutions are not spelled out and are just implied. The DM is supposed to be open to improvise to react to the players plans and ideas to overcome a room/challenge etc.

 

[mamba]

That sounds about right.
Maybe that ends up being Daggerheart ... I did really enjoy running that as a one-shot recently.
The main issue is that it's not "trad play" (pretty different from D&D mechanically).

Have you taken a look at Land of Eem? It's kind of a modern-ish, relatively simple OSR, maybe it fits what you are looking for

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/322009/land-of-eem-rpg-quickstart-guide

The books are 30% off right now

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/517422/land-of-eem-deluxe-set-bundle

 

[wicked cool]

No, the goal is rarely to kill a monster. The shadowdark (and OSR in general) intention is that the monsters are a danger/challenge to your mission which is not to kill monsters in most cases, but get treasure or reach a quest goal. Killing monster gives you 0 XP, so "kill the monsters" is not the default goal of a dungeon. If you try to kill all the monsters you are certainly reducing the survival chance of your character to a minimum. Avoiding combat should be the key goal for most players, thats why it sound absurd to me if you compare Shadowdark to a video game hack n slash like Diablo.

That is the point, players are supposed to not just run in the room and fight the monsters, because the dungeons don't give any advantages to them. They are supposed to use actual problem solving skills to create an advantage situations for themselves. Or to reach their goal without killing the monsters.

I think the problem that both of you are having that you expect a modern D&D adventure design where the adventure spells it explicitly out if there are other solutions than combat. But the OSR approach is more like: Here is a situation, deal with it, the possible solutions are not spelled out and are just implied. The DM is supposed to be open to improvise to react to the players plans and ideas to overcome a room/challenge etc.

I have seen Kelsey run this and you are correct there is no experience for monsters but I haven’t seen a consistent problem solve monsters to avoid combat. You have options in some adventures but not often