Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[Retros_x]

I have seen Kelsey run this and you are correct there is no experience for monsters but I haven’t seen a consistent problem solve monsters to avoid combat. You have options in some adventures but not often

The options are not presented as options, that is what I mean. You get monsters in a specific environment, often in a specific situation. Like 3 Lizardmen arguing around a campfire. Now the players need to weigh their options, for example: do they try to sneak around, surprise them, intervene in their discussion as peaceful mediators or as instigators, listening to their discussion to find out more informations about the whole fraction or their specific needs so they maybe can offer them what they need/want etc. Or just attack them, but that is their own choice then. Nothing in the adventure or in the game-design requires you to kill the lizardmen.

In 5e all these options would've been spelled out to them and non-combat encounters are often specificially declared as such. In Shadowdark and OSR in general its often vice-versa, that combat-only encounters are specificially declared as such and all others are implied to be open to other approaches. That is one of the main reasons unfamiliar players and DM struggle with OSR games, because there is much more active thinking, improvisation and participation required, every encounter is a little sandbox.

Combat is considered a fail state in OSR, it happens when your other approaches failed. You tried to instigate a melee between the arguing lizardmen but they saw through your manipulations and attack. Or you tried to sneak around them, but they heard something came over to investigate. When they questioned you they realized you came with ill intent to rob them and they attack you. Combat is dangerous and thus to be avoided. If it erupts, you did fail some other attempt in most cases.

 

[Imaro]

In 5e all these options would've been spelled out to them and non-combat encounters are often specificially declared as such. In Shadowdark and OSR in general its often vice-versa, that combat-only encounters are specificially declared as such and all others are implied to be open to other approaches. That is one of the main reasons unfamiliar players and DM struggle with OSR games, because there is much more active thinking, improvisation and participation required, every encounter is a little sandbox.

Yeah... no, this is wrong and not how 5e is played... at most it's possibly how some choose to play 5e.

 

[TiQuinn]

Combat is dangerous and thus to be avoided. If it erupts, you did fail some other attempt in most cases.

There are whole classes dedicated to combat. A large part of the rules are about fighting or what happens when you fight.

This combat is a fail state stuff ignores the fact that combat is a large part of what players of virtually any generation want in a fantasy game. Not 100% of the time, and not all players, certainly, but I’d hazard to guess that most want combat at some point as part of dungeoning and dragoning or shadowdarking.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

1) A player needs to trust that they can successfully cast a spell at least one time. (Fixed in houserules.)
2) Die rolling ability scores as presented takes too long to produce an acceptable character. The 3d6 method of the past does not work in "d20 + modifier" systems. (It worked in old-school games because ability scores weren't as tied to your character's role in the party. It might've granted a slight edge to attack or damage, an XP bonus, or an extra language slot.) Shadowdark should either have a Standard Array and/or present die rolling methods that have a statistical likelihood to create characters that aren't going to be trashed (per the rules).
3) Dungeon turns and constant Initiative are immersion breaking and take too long.
4) HP and damage are out of whack. Yes, this is a compatibility issue with old D&D, but it should change. 1HD monsters shouldn't have a 50/50 chance to kill a PC with one hit in a dungeon adventure where you face swarms of them AND you can't reasonably avoid combat. (If you open a door to a 30 X 30 room and see the monsters, they see you, you can't avoid them, you can't run away because they have the same - or better - speed.)
5) The DCs of Shadowdark are mathematically wrong if players should have a reasonable chance of success for mundane tasks. An Easy DC 9 is a 60% chance of success. You only have a 37.5% chance to have rolled 12 or higher on your 3d6 ability score. So there's a slight chance that you have better than a 60% chance of success to achieve an "Easy" success. If we look at a lowly kobold's Armor Class [13] as a DC skill check, it's on the high end of a Normal check. You have a less than average chance to hit, even assuming you might have a +1 or +2 to hit.
6) Levelling up is disappointing. You get a handful of HP (average is 2-4) that don't really matter or add to survivability in a substantial way. You might get to roll on a chart that could make you 5% better at something you could already do. Assuming you're not a spellcaster, you don't unlock special capstone abilities at higher levels. (Extra attacks for a fighter, for example.)

1) Magic is supposed to be unreliable.
2) Your characters are supposed to be average or even a bit weak. You're supposed to feel outmatched compared to monsters. You're not a Hero.
3) Shadowdark has rules for everyone moving together - initiative should be used when exploring/interacting with rooms/spaces, not for walking around.
4) 1HD monsters are supposed to have a 50/50 shot of their damage roll killing you. You're not a Hero.
5) You're not supposed to have a reasonable chance for a check - the gameplay purpose is to AVOID ROLLING. Don't leave things up to luck - think outside the box.
6) Advancement in OSR games generally comes from finding magic items, not from class abilities. Spellcasters get a bit more class ability with spells - and in return get smaller HD.

 

[mamba]

2) Your characters are supposed to be average or even a bit weak. You're supposed to feel outmatched compared to monsters. You're not a Hero.

4) 1HD monsters are supposed to have a 50/50 shot of their damage roll killing you. You're not a Hero.
5) You're not supposed to have a reasonable chance for a check - the gameplay purpose is to AVOID ROLLING. Don't leave things up to luck - think outside the box.

sounds awful, no wonder @Retreater bounced off it

 

[TwoSix]

There are whole classes dedicated to combat. A large part of the rules are about fighting or what happens when you fight.

This combat is a fail state stuff ignores the fact that combat is a large part of what players of virtually any generation want in a fantasy game. Not 100% of the time, and not all players, certainly, but I’d hazard to guess that most want combat at some point as part of dungeoning and dragoning or shadowdarking.

Sure, combat as a natural consequence of failing at some other goal.

If you want moderate amounts of combat to be a regular feature in your fantasy gaming, than you probably shouldn't use a game organized around principled OSR play as your main game. Always match the right game to the group needs.

 

[TiQuinn]

sounds awful, no wonder @Retreater bounced off it

I love all these unwritten rules that people are supposed to magically absorb.

 

[TiQuinn]

Sure, combat as a natural consequence of failing at some other goal.

If you want moderate amounts of combat to be a regular feature in your fantasy gaming, than you probably shouldn't use a game organized around principled OSR play as your main game. Always match the right game to the group needs.

I disagree that OSR play is or should be organized in that way as a central tenet across the board. DCC certainly allows for more of it. Even older D&D and straight clones like OSRIC allows for more of it.

 

[Arilyn]

There are whole classes dedicated to combat. A large part of the rules are about fighting or what happens when you fight.

This combat is a fail state stuff ignores the fact that combat is a large part of what players of virtually any generation want in a fantasy game. Not 100% of the time, and not all players, certainly, but I’d hazard to guess that most want combat at some point as part of dungeoning and dragoning or shadowdarking.

Of course there are classes dedicated to combat. You need them because combat as a fail state does not mean you can completely avoid it. You will get noticed, fail in your negotiations, etc. The point is you want to have things in your favour as much as possible. If you have to fight, set things up to give your party an advantage. And sometimes your negotiations will mean your party promises the lizard folk that they'll get rid of the spiders, for example. Sometimes your party might feel its worth tackling that wraith to get the treasure.

And yes, these types of things can come up in 5e. The difference is, in 5e, you can get away with just charging in most of the time. There are no guarantees that'll work in an OSR game but that doesn't mean you won't occasionally try it!

Because fights tend to be short and brutal, if you come up with a clever plan to bypass, trick or bring the whole cave down on the "boss" it will not feel anticlimactic. The GM will not feel disappointed that the exciting final battle was just totally averted.

There is a constant risk vs.reward going on in OSR games and in well designed scenarios, there will also be cool things to interact with. Clever play often brings in odd items or quirky magic items you never thought would actually ever be used.

All of these examples can absolutely occur in 5e games but characters in 5e have a ton of cool abilities designed for combat that you'll want to show off in long dramatic fight scenes. I'm playing in a Daggerheart game right now and the long cool engaging combat is expected and a ton of fun. There's not a ton of flash in an OSR fight, except maybe from a spell or magic item. The fighter just gets the job done or the thief sets up a perfect backstab from the shadows.

Avoid combat as much as you can in an OSR game but know that you'll not be completely successful.

 

[numtini]

A talent that lets you hide while being observed, even if it's just for a split second. And maybe with a mechanic where you can lose it (like a spell casting roll). [Because in my game it was almost impossible to ever get to backstab. Or escape from enemies.]