Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[numtini]

Ideas I'd like for the thief...
A talent that lets you hide while being observed, even if it's just for a split second. And maybe with a mechanic where you can lose it (like a spell casting roll). [Because in my game it was almost impossible to ever get to backstab. Or escape from enemies.]

That's the default in the SD games I've played in or run. In melee, thieves can spend a round outside of the scrum to hide then sneak around and get in the backstab. To be fair, in most old school games, how useful the backstab rules are will depend on your GM's rulings and whether they're being reasonable or not. I have played with a GM that was basically "no backstabs other than fully dark rooms and you can't move from where you hide" which is lousy. But having watched the "gorilla walks through basketball players" video and totally missing the gorilla, I tend to give thieves the benefit of the doubt with all hell breaking loose in melee. It's not about being invisible, it's about not being noticed.

In terms of giving the thief additional skills is the default is you can do anything you can describe that isn't implausible. That's what's meant by player skill not character skill. And you only roll when there's some kind of imminent danger and time pressure. Most times, it's just narrative. Say that you're searching the floor and you find the pressure plate. Say you examine the lock and you find the poison needle.

 

[TiQuinn]

Of course there are classes dedicated to combat. You need them because combat as a fail state does not mean you can completely avoid it. You will get noticed, fail in your negotiations, etc. The point is you want to have things in your favour as much as possible. If you have to fight, set things up to give your party an advantage. And sometimes your negotiations will mean your party promises the lizard folk that they'll get rid of the spiders, for example. Sometimes your party might feel its worth tackling that wraith to get the treasure.

And yes, these types of things can come up in 5e. The difference is, in 5e, you can get away with just charging in most of the time. There are no guarantees that'll work in an OSR game but that doesn't mean you won't occasionally try it!

Because fights tend to be short and brutal, if you come up with a clever plan to bypass, trick or bring the whole cave down on the "boss" it will not feel anticlimactic. The GM will not feel disappointed that the exciting final battle was just totally averted.

There is a constant risk vs.reward going on in OSR games and in well designed scenarios, there will also be cool things to interact with. Clever play often brings in odd items or quirky magic items you never thought would actually ever be used.

All of these examples can absolutely occur in 5e games but characters in 5e have a ton of cool abilities designed for combat that you'll want to show off in long dramatic fight scenes. I'm playing in a Daggerheart game right now and the long cool engaging combat is expected and a ton of fun. There's not a ton of flash in an OSR fight, except maybe from a spell or magic item. The fighter just gets the job done or the thief sets up a perfect backstab from the shadows.

Avoid combat as much as you can in an OSR game but know that you'll not be completely successful.

Combat is a fail state is like saying this game that I wrote rules for is 80% dedicated to the implementation of that fail state. What the rules do not cover is typically the remaining 20% which is left entirely up to the discretion of the GM and the players to define whether or not their course of action is going to reach that fail state or not.

I find that to be backasswards as a general principle. There is nothing wrong with avoiding combat by finding a sneaky approach, or a diplomatic approach, or a puzzle solving approach, but these should not be immediately superior to the combat approach. They should simply be equal approaches. A fail state can occur in all of them.

Edit: Shadowdark, to its credit, provides rules for making combat more viable. It is obviously trying to appeal to a broader array of people than those who simply want to apply the 7 Maxims of OSR. Where I quibble with Shadowdark specifically is that its presentation of the rules is brief, often to a fault. While that's part of its allure to some, it's also confusing to those who expect a bit more description.

 

[numtini]

I don't feel like combat is a failed state at all in Shadowdark, but it's definitely not the random blunder into a room and roll for initiative that you find in most modern D20 games.

 

[TwoSix]

I disagree that OSR play is or should be organized in that way as a central tenet across the board. DCC certainly allows for more of it. Even older D&D and straight clones like OSRIC allows for more of it.

Yea, but those are actual old-school retro games, not principled OSR style games. Those are two different categories.

 

[TiQuinn]

Yea, but those are actual old-school retro games, not principled OSR style games. Those are two different categories.

I think the categories are highly, highly blurry.

 

[Bill Zebub]

A talent that lets you hide while being observed, even if it's just for a split second. And maybe with a mechanic where you can lose it (like a spell casting roll). [Because in my game it was almost impossible to ever get to backstab. Or escape from enemies.]

You have that talent, it's just not written on your character sheet: skip your turn in combat and spend the action trying to hide.

EDIT: I also think "combat is a fail state" is an exaggeration. "Blindly stumbling into combat and stubbornly keeping at it until TPK" is the fail state.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

b. To be fair, in most old school games, how useful the backstab rules are will depend on your GM's rulings and whether they're being reasonable or not.

Table Variance is a feature of OSR games. There aren't rules to "protect" players from bad referees - a referee must play fair.

What the rules do not cover is typically the remaining 20% which is left entirely up to the discretion of the GM and the players

Correct, much of the game is left undefined so that players and GMs will rely on logic and creativity rather than interacting with mechanics. The gaps in the rules are there on purpose.

sounds awful, no wonder @Retreater bounced off it

Lots of people enjoy this gameplay style. There are other games out there for people who want heroic and/or rules-heavy games.

You need them because combat as a fail state does not mean you can completely avoid it. You will get noticed, fail in your negotiations, etc. The point is you want to have things in your favour as much as possible. If you have to fight, set things up to give your party an advantage. And sometimes your negotiations will mean your party promises the lizard folk that they'll get rid of the spiders, for example. Sometimes your party might feel its worth tackling that wraith to get the treasure.

Exactly this.

 

[mamba]

I love all these unwritten rules that people are supposed to magically absorb.

yeah, if it is designed to be played like that, then lead with this, instead of having people discover it over their first dozen TPKs

 

[TiQuinn]

Correct, much of the game is left undefined so that players and GMs will rely on logic and creativity rather than interacting with mechanics. The gaps in the rules are there on purpose.

Which I'm fine with as a free-form exercise, but the game is also about combat. That's what the rules define.

 

[mamba]

Lots of people enjoy this gameplay style. There are other games out there for people who want heroic and/or rules-heavy games.

it’s not the rules light I was commenting on but that supposedly the characters should be weak, below average, sucking at things and dying like flies.
5e is more heroic than I would like, but this sounds like it way overshot in the other direction

Esp. with none of that being pointed out in the rules or reflected in adventures (by adventures providing / pointing out alternatives to a fight), or even practiced by (many / most) GMs

I always felt SD was too sparse for what I am looking for so did not take a closer look, but it always kinda kept showing up in the periphery. This thread makes it very clear that I should ignore it altogether