D&D General Who is this made for (Not Beginners) - the New D&D Starter Set

[Gradine]

Honestly I see no reason to buy any starter set that's the same price as its associated PHB, no matter how good it's supposed to be. From my perspective you're paying the same amount for less content.

I mean, it's hard to argue against that

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

One of the BIG points of my post (maybe I didn't make it clear enough) was that the Starter Set did such a bad job of introducing players how to play it would have been far easier (and less time consuming since I am familiar with the rules already on my part) that instead of giving each new player their own starter set to set up their characters so we could be good to go and start playing right when I got there would have been to simply just buy the PHB for each of them.

These both feel kind of over the top.

Why not just get one Starter Set, like Gleemax intended, look through it before you meet up, and then just have everyone pick a character class, hand out the cards, etc.?

Why is dropping $200 on your players -- whether it's four starter sets or four PHBs -- before they've ever played a single game the preferable option?

You are clearly pretty upset about all of this, but this is all so BIG that it's hard for me, and I suspect others, to fully relate to what's happening here.

 

[AlViking]

One of the BIG points of my post (maybe I didn't make it clear enough) was that the Starter Set did such a bad job of introducing players how to play it would have been far easier (and less time consuming since I am familiar with the rules already on my part) that instead of giving each new player their own starter set to set up their characters so we could be good to go and start playing right when I got there would have been to simply just buy the PHB for each of them.

With how much time we spent getting things sorted out with the Starter Set it would have been far less time consuming to use the PHB than the Starter Set. That was it, that was my comment and what my OP really went to in conclusion.

In addition, I feel the PHB explains things a LOT better and more clearly for beginning players to understand what is what for their character.

I've also reiterated that once or twice in this thread.

I could add in this post (as in this is a new thought in retrospect, it was not in other posts I have made in this thread) as an additional comment that there would be other bonuses to this. I did not say this originally, but now looking in retrospect, with how the game differentiates between ability score presentations and racial presentations, reading the first dozen pages of the PHB would have a similar time commitment (though no promises that they would have characters made up as I would not expect them to get into the actual character creation portion if I did this, and they probably wouldn't delve into the Class options, just the sections prior) and when spinning up could go faster (as in writing options down rather than searching through cards). They'd have a better understanding of the full game better. One more reason to say the Starter Set is worthless for beginners in my eyes in comparison, the Starter Set gives no advantages for a new Player over the PHB from what I can see currently.

PS: Seeing everyone's response and defending the Starter Set in relation to my comment in comparison to the PHB makes it pretty obvious to me that they would prefer the Starter Set over it. I just prefer the PHB by a longshot at this point.

Edit: PHB is the same cost as well, so my advice is to skip the Starter Set with a New player and just always...ALWAYS go for the PHB instead.

It sounds like you weren't the target audience for the starter set as it was designed. Other than that I can't say much - I don't have the starter set and don't plan on buying it because I've introduced plenty of people to the game without one. So it's like giving a bicycle to someone who rides a motorcycle - they're not the same thing, each has a different purpose.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

One of the BIG points of my post (maybe I didn't make it clear enough) was that the Starter Set did such a bad job of introducing players how to play it would have been far easier (and less time consuming since I am familiar with the rules already on my part) that instead of giving each new player their own starter set to set up their characters so we could be good to go and start playing right when I got there would have been to simply just buy the PHB for each of them.

Yeah, I understand what you mean, but I whole-heartedly disagree with you. I get that you had a bad experience, and maybe you're right that FOR YOU (and your group) it would have been a better idea, but for most people (I've taught a LOT of people to play D&D) this Starter is the best thing that they've invented so far to do that job. The PHB is terrible for that job. As you've said yourself, and I agree, making characters as a first step, is a terrible way to learn to play D&D! (This Set doesn't really do that - it lets you make all the biggest choices: Class, Background, Species, and equipment to a lesser extent, but it's QUICK and barely more work than picking your Pregen, and slightly more meaningful.)

With how much time we spent getting things sorted out with the Starter Set it would have been far less time consuming to use the PHB than the Starter Set.

IMO, That's just weird. I'm sure you believe that, but I have no idea how it could be true. It takes far, far longer to fill out a character sheet than it does to dig out a few cards!

That was it, that was my comment and what my OP really went to in conclusion.

I get it, but you really, really dug in to a lot of over-the-top declarations. I get it, I actually do. I mind hyperbole far less than many folks here do (I'd use it more myself if it didn't lead to arguments).

In addition, I feel the PHB explains things a LOT better and more clearly for beginning players to understand what is what for their character. I've also reiterated that once or twice in this thread.

It takes hours and hours to just to read anything meaningful in the PHB.

I could add in this post (as in this is a new thought in retrospect, it was not in other posts I have made in this thread) as an additional comment that there would be other bonuses to this. I did not say this originally, but now looking in retrospect, with how the game differentiates between ability score presentations and racial presentations, reading the first dozen pages of the PHB would have a similar time commitment (though no promises that they would have characters made up as I would not expect them to get into the actual character creation portion if I did this, and they probably wouldn't delve into the Class options, just the sections prior) and when spinning up could go faster (as in writing options down rather than searching through cards).

Searching through cards is WAY faster than writing things down! They're in Alphabetical Order when you open the box! In one of my games, I had SEVEN PLAYERS and I handed them all their cards in a couple of minutes, with them reading off to me what they needed! A few were missed, but we fixed that quickly.

They'd have a better understanding of the full game better. One more reason to say the Starter Set is worthless for beginners in my eyes in comparison, the Starter Set gives no advantages for a new Player over the PHB from what I can see currently.

I believe you, but I shake my head. I just 100% don't see the problems you see.

PS: Seeing everyone's response and defending the Starter Set in relation to my comment in comparison to the PHB makes it pretty obvious to me that they would prefer the Starter Set over it. I just prefer the PHB by a longshot at this point.

Don't get me wrong. I really like the 2024 PHB. I think it's got a great layout and is easy to use. It's not for new players, though!

Edit: PHB is the same cost as well, so my advice is to skip the Starter Set with a New player and just always...ALWAYS go for the PHB instead.

PHB is really only good for one player at a time. Starter Set is good for five. Four and the DM. Plus it has an Adventure. It's WAY better for a group looking to try D&D. I honestly don't think that very many people could play D&D by starting with a PHB. For one, they'd need a DM who has an Adventure (or at least one in mind!) Honestly, IMO, the PHB is only really good for making characters, and that (again IMO) has very little to do with PLAYING. It's a nice part of the game, don't get me wrong, but it's not Playing The Game. Yes, of course, the rules are in there too, but you're much better off playing before you read the rules!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Honestly I see no reason to buy any starter set that's the same price as its associated PHB, no matter how good it's supposed to be. From my perspective you're paying the same amount for less content.

It's more like different content. Yeah, it's a lot less words, and it's not content that Micah is interested in, but it's content that's worth quite a bit (in fact, I'm positive that WotC makes WAY LESS MONEY per unit on the Starter than they do on the PHB). Believe it or not, it's still a loss-leader, even at that price!

 

[mamba]

Honestly I see no reason to buy any starter set that's the same price as its associated PHB, no matter how good it's supposed to be. From my perspective you're paying the same amount for less content.

it's predominantly different content, not sure how you compare which one is less or more when the content is that different. Sure, the PHB has more pages, but fewer tokens, dice, etc.

The idea is that the starter set is a good introduction / easier onramp to the game. If that is not the case you might as well go with the PHB right away.

 

[BruceWright]

The idea is that the starter set is a good introduction / easier onramp to the game. If that is not the case you might as well go with the PHB right away.

if OPs players were unable to find this entry explaining Hit Points in a 30 page booklet, i would certainly not recommend they start with the PHB.

(Page 15)

 

[GreyLord]

@BruceWright

Thanks for pointing it out. It's not under Hitpoints though...wonder why?

It's not at the portion where they actually needed to know what they were in order to utilize that information.

With an experienced player...sure...it might work. If they watched the video...sure...it might work.

Without those items...it didn't work.

What it boiled down to is they read the Read this First...which had no definition and no giving of any idea what Hit Points were. So, when it was mentioned they had no idea what type of tokens they were supposed to use.

They DID grasp what Hit points were (they actually didn't use the Tokens during the game, because when they read they were supposed to get them, they had no idea what they were). However, they DID read and comprehend the combat and skill check sections pretty decently (and as I mentioned previously, the actual combat and skill checks were things they understood. The How to Play book spent far more time explaining things like that than the basic stuff that came before it). By that point they had forgotten entirely about the token stuff except they had separated piles of stuff in front of them.

They just used memory instead to remember how much HP they had (and it wasn't tough for me to remember that since it's not a huge group).

 

[GreyLord]

it's predominantly different content, not sure how you compare which one is less or more when the content is that different. Sure, the PHB has more pages, but fewer tokens, dice, etc.

The idea is that the starter set is a good introduction / easier onramp to the game. If that is not the case you might as well go with the PHB right away.

That's my conclusion. The tokens and all the pretty stuff is not really worth it for the New player and doesn't really help as much as some may think. I feel this is more a set for those who are experienced as well as to draw people to D&D beyond (and that makes sense, as a business Beyond is a big focus right now).

I'm not going to use the Starter Set as a way to introduce people into the game anymore. For the time and what I have to do it will be easier for me to just be there when they learn the game...and if I have to be there we might as well use the materials I'm more used to and can explain quicker and easier because I know where things are.

Because of that, there's no point for any new player of mine to ever get one of these ever again.

It's a real shame because I had actually looked forward to this set with a great deal of anticipation (and planned this event with excitement). It's been a let down, to say the least.

 

[BruceWright]

What it boiled down to is they read the Read this First...which had no definition and no giving of any idea what Hit Points were. So, when it was mentioned they had no idea what type of tokens they were supposed to use.

The hit point tokens say HP on them, are the shape of hearts, are punched out from a punch board where they are labeled “Hit Point Tokens” the Quickstart shows every item and labels them Hit Point Tokens and Page 3 of the Quickstart shows them placed in the space which instructs you to place Hit Point Tokens.

They DID grasp what Hit points were (they actually didn't use the Tokens during the game, because when they read they were supposed to get them, they had no idea what they were).

Given the following 3 places where hit point tokens are shown and named, I think the designers did a great job, but they just can’t design for the way every type of player might be expecting to find the information.

They put it in 3 places, but not the place you thought to look. I don’t think that’s on them.