D&D 5E (2024) Class Tier List 1 Year Later.

[Paul Farquhar]

“Hightened” spell is interesting, because even though it’s the optimal choice, players tend not to choose it, or put it off to high level, because it’s boring. Quicken is by far the most popular, since it lets the character do more on their turn, followed by moor damage, because blowing stuff up is fun. And optimising a character is pointless. You will win easily in any case, so there is nothing to be gained by making it even easier.

Really, any ranking system should be based on “most fun” rather than “most power in a combat situation”.

 

[Zardnaar]

“Hightened” spell is interesting, because even though it’s the optimal choice, players tend not to choose it, or put it off to high level, because it’s boring. Quicken is by far the most popular, since it lets the character do more on their turn, followed by moor damage, because blowing stuff up is fun. And optimising a character is pointless. You will win easily in any case, so there is nothing to be gained by making it even easier.

Really, any ranking system should be based on “most fun” rather than “most power in a combat situation”.

Quickens bad until level 10.

To expensive and essentially it let's you cast a cantrip.

Great with the right wand or staff but they're normally later on.

They changed twin spell BTW hence tashas mind whip comment.

Of you build a blaster sorcerer you take some combination of empower, seeking and the transmution one. Empower and twin if you hybrid it. Sorcerous Intuition and hex+ attack spell is also fun/hilarious with scorching ray/chromatic orb/ sorcerous burst.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Quickens bad until level 10.

To expensive and essentially it let's you cast a cantrip.

Absolutely true, but players choose it anyway because it lets them do more stuff on their turn, even if the extra cantrip makes no real difference to the outcome. Doing stuff is fun, even if it doesn’t really matter. It’s a game, of course it doesn’t matter.

The player will rest in any case when they run out of sorcery points or spell slots, so there is no reason to conserve them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Absolutely true, but players choose it anyway because it lets them do more stuff on their turn, even if the extra cantrip makes no real difference to the outcome. Doing stuff is fun, even if it doesn’t really matter. It’s a game, of course it doesn’t matter.

It wasnt a fun tier list though.

Sorcerer woukd still be up there due to Sorcerous Burst and chromatic orb manipulation. My cantrip just clocked you for 40 damage.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Ar high levels its closer yes. Its really level 7 spells plus wish where wizard runs away with it. That's tier 4.

Wizards get better around 10-13. Theres a good chance the game wont go that high.

Have a look at Wizard level 6 abilities. Sorcerer can metamagic all their lvl 2 and 3 spells. Bards get bard dice, clerics get channel divinity. Wizards lack resources by comparison and their class abilities aren't really there yet.

Diviners gets two potential awesome spells. On two targets assuming you rolled well. Situational and random.

Invokers B tier vs other wizards. Isn't that good at damage until 10.

Aburerer got indirectly nerfed.

Illusionist is good.

Youre competing with level 6 bard, sorcerer, cleric abilities.

Damage also sucks even by spellcaster standards. That improves later on.

Have a look at the Sorcerer's level 6 abilities.

Aberrant Mind: You can slightly more efficiently cast from spell points (which thus means you aren't using them for metamagic...), you have resistance to one rare damage type, and you have advantage on saving throws to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened conditions. That's...really nothing special.

Clockwork: You can put a defensive ward around one person, burning 1-5 SP to do it. That's...it. It really, really isn't very impressive. Mitigating damage by burning your precious Sorcery Points is, flatly, incredibly wasteful.

Draconic: You get resistance to a damage type, and you get to add +4 (becoming +5 later) damage to one roll from a spell you cast on any given round with that type. I have personal experience. This isn't bad...but it absolutely isn't rocking anyone's world either.

Wild Magic: You can add or subtract 1d4 from anyone's d20 rolls by spending 1 SP (and a Reaction) each. That is actually pretty solid.

One out of four isn't the impressive display you were trying to imply here. Sorcerer 6 abilities are sometimes decent to good. They aren't jaw-dropping.

 

[Zardnaar]

Have a look at the Sorcerer's level 6 abilities.

Aberrant Mind: You can slightly more efficiently cast from spell points (which thus means you aren't using them for metamagic...), you have resistance to one rare damage type, and you have advantage on saving throws to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened conditions. That's...really nothing special.

Clockwork: You can put a defensive ward around one person, burning 1-5 SP to do it. That's...it. It really, really isn't very impressive. Mitigating damage by burning your precious Sorcery Points is, flatly, incredibly wasteful.

Draconic: You get resistance to a damage type, and you get to add +4 (becoming +5 later) damage to one roll from a spell you cast on any given round with that type. I have personal experience. This isn't bad...but it absolutely isn't rocking anyone's world either.

Wild Magic: You can add or subtract 1d4 from anyone's d20 rolls by spending 1 SP (and a Reaction) each. That is actually pretty solid.

One out of four isn't the impressive display you were trying to imply here. Sorcerer 6 abilities are sometimes decent to good. They aren't jaw-dropping.

That's on top of everything else.

Put it this way. Youre playing eith Hussar. Go and read my OP again. Notice the bit about Random DM.

How good would a wizard be in those games with those DMs that didn't work out?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Aberrant Mind: You can slightly more efficiently cast from spell points (which thus means you aren't using them for metamagic...), you have resistance to one rare damage type, and you have advantage on saving throws to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened conditions. That's...really nothing special.

It’s more useful for out of combat shenanigans. These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.

The main drawback of wild magic has nothing to do with their abilities, I agree, this is strong. It’s that it makes their player unpopular with other players who keep expecting you to drop a cow on their head. This is kind of a legacy image issue rather than the actuality.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

“Hightened” spell is interesting, because even though it’s the optimal choice, players tend not to choose it, or put it off to high level, because it’s boring. Quicken is by far the most popular, since it lets the character do more on their turn, followed by moor damage, because blowing stuff up is fun. And optimising a character is pointless. You will win easily in any case, so there is nothing to be gained by making it even easier.

Really, any ranking system should be based on “most fun” rather than “most power in a combat situation”.

Ironically I actually had good reason to pick up Subtle Spell as a low-level Sorcerer....because early on, I didn't have an actual spell focus, so I couldn't skip non-costly components. That made several otherwise-powerful spells inaccessible to me (at the start of Out of the Abyss)--but when I got Subtle Spell, suddenly that concern ceased to matter. Of course, I then did in fact get a spell focus not too much later, but still, there were multiple combats where I couldn't cast several spells because I just didn't have material components.

These days I get all my mileage out of Careful Spell though (which was the other starting option I picked). Being able to drop three fireballs on your enemies without hurting a single one of your allies is a pretty useful thing to do at level 6.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's on top of everything else.

Put it this way. Youre playing eith Hussar. Go and read my OP again. Notice the bit about Random DM.

How good would a wizard be in those games with those DMs that didn't work out?

If a "Random DM" is so impactful that they can swing a class from being the best option in the game to being second-worst, isn't that literally proof of what I've asserted to you all along, that mediocre or flawed GMs can absolutely ruin a 5e game and the system offers no method to address this other than "find a GM that doesn't do that"?

Like at this point I'm wondering what I was supposed to think all those times you asserted that 5e wasn't so overwhelmingly dependent on having an actually great GM. Because now you're literally constructing tier lists based on that very thing which you have, dozens of times, assured me was not true.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If a "Random DM" is so impactful that they can swing a class from being the best option in the game to being second-worst, isn't that literally proof of what I've asserted to you all along, that mediocre or flawed GMs can absolutely ruin a 5e game and the system offers no method to address this other than "find a GM that doesn't do that"?

Like at this point I'm wondering what I was supposed to think all those times you asserted that 5e wasn't so overwhelmingly dependent on having an actually great GM. Because now you're literally constructing tier lists based on that very thing which you have, dozens of times, assured me was not true.

Does the DM make a huge difference? Yes. For example, I will tend to throw up obstacles for optimised characters, and things that help mechanically weaker ones. And I tend to view combat as interludes between the important story stuff. Does it matter? Well it's always been part of D&D, and D&D has done okay over the last 50 years. Could it be changed? Not without excluding a huge number of players, who would simply shift to playing Not-D&D and give their money to a different company.