Why do you play games other than D&D?

[Fenris-77]

I also think, as a real life investigator, that 'putting together a half-cocked theory that matches most of the available data, and seeing if it sticks' is very close to How Things Actually Work. Much closer than 'putting all the pieces together perfectly and getting external confirmation that you were right'.

I'm going to say this at the risk of pissing you off, the truth, or value, of solving a mystery in an RPG has very little to do with solving one in real life. Two very different things IMO.

 

[soviet]

I'm going to say this at the risk of pissing you off, the truth, or value, of solving a mystery in an RPG has very little to do with solving one in real life. Two very different things IMO.

All good, if I've understood you correctly that's the point I'm trying to make. 'Solving the GM's puzzle' may feel subjectively like you would if you were conducting an investigation in real life, but it's actually different.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don’t think it does. A mystery show? A mystery novel? Sure. But I know how you also don’t like the idea of a story, so I don’t know how that sits so well with you.

Why I don’t think it has much in common with a “real life mystery” is because real life mysteries are not authored. They’re not storified or gamified. They require all manner of actions already described in this thread that would make for incredibly dull novels/shows/games.

Both types of games are simply that… games. Games about solving a mystery, and each has a method for doing so, and neither is closer to the real world.

To put it more directly, “the GM makes stuff up” is no closer to real life than “the players make stuff up and then make a roll to see if they are correct”.

Not how I see it. As I said, the GM stands in for reality. The Players (through their PCs) stand in for real people. So in a traditional game, the mystery is created outside the purview of the Players just like how in real life the mystery is created outside the purview of the real people investigating it. In BB, the mystery's answer is created through a process during active play at least partially under the Player's control, and which did not exist until that creation process.

Again, how are both those styles equally far from solving a real mystery?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I also think, as a real life investigator, that 'putting together a half-cocked theory that matches most of the available data, and seeing if it sticks' is very close to How Things Actually Work. Much closer than 'putting all the pieces together perfectly and getting external confirmation that you were right'.

I don't see any requirement in a traditional game for the GM to give any sort of objective "confirmation". Whether or not they do, however, an answer exists in the setting.

Just like in real life.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Again, how are both those styles equally far from solving a real mystery?

Because this:

As I said, the GM stands in for reality.

Isn’t how reality works.

I understand that you have a preference, and that’s cool… you can enjoy whatever you like. You can also feel free to describe why you have your preference.

This thing where you’re insisting that one method of pretending is more like reality than the other is just misguided in my opinion, and I see it differently.

But in a last attempt to perhaps bridge the gap here…

Would you say that the board game Clue (or Cluedo if you’re nasty) is objectively more like a real life investigation than an RPG like Brindlewood Bay?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because this:


Isn’t how reality works.

I understand that you have a preference, and that’s cool… you can enjoy whatever you like. You can also feel free to describe why you have your preference.

This thing where you’re insisting that one method of pretending is more like reality than the other is just misguided in my opinion, and I see it differently.

But in a last attempt to perhaps bridge the gap here…

Would you say that the board game Clue (or Cluedo if you’re nasty) is objectively more like a real life investigation than an RPG like Brindlewood Bay?

Yes, because the solution to the mystery exists in the world prior to the investigators starting their work.

Cause comes before effect. Just like in real life.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yes, because the solution to the mystery exists in the world prior to the investigators starting their work.

Cause comes before effect. Just like in real life.

And nothing else about the game matters in your assessment?

Yeah… we’ll just have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And nothing else about the game matters in your assessment?

Yeah… we’ll just have to agree to disagree here.

Lots of things matter to me. But in a mystery, I want to find an answer, not create one. Inventing reality as a player in active play is pretty much never what I want from an RPG, and a game that features it in an unavoidable way is not going on my happy list.

 

[Rainbow Scissors]

One of the important forces in game selection is "We want it to be just as much fun as the old days, when we were new to TTRPGs." Parts of that are impossible: no experience can be as much fun as the first time you got it to work right, and it was really cool. To achieve that feeling again, you need to be doing something significantly different, so that your experience is new and cool again.

I've found I can get "this is new and cool" from campaigns with different settings using a familiar game system. I've done this with BRP and GURPS, but not with Hero System, which I've found is always trying to do superheroes. This may be the result of the GMs I've played it with.

Like I said, it is hard to explain. I do not think it is an issue with being old/new or fresh or whatever.
It is more that the game's aesthetic and general vibe comes across as being different.

The rules changes from 5E to 5E24 are minor, but some of those small changes ripple throughout the rest of the game in ways that are not initially obvious. It's not really a rules issue though. That's why it's tough to explain it. It's more of things like tone and vibe, which are mostly subjective, but I they are also influenced by how the game is put together.

The local gaming store near us has some of the starter sets for Daggerheart. While we were not entirely satisfied with the quickstart rules, the set is only like $60, so we have been talking about trying that. Maybe the full rules will be better than what we previously tried. If not, it's not a lot of money for the group to split between us and try something different.

 

[soviet]

I don't see any requirement in a traditional game for the GM to give any sort of objective "confirmation". Whether or not they do, however, an answer exists in the setting.

How does that work? You're playing a traditional sort of investigative game, the players analyse the clues and think they've found a solution, then what? They apprehend the person they believe to be the murderer and they say nothing? No further evidence is found? How do the players know they solved it?