What do YOU plan on doing with Daggerheart?

[Reynard]

 

[Reynard]

 

[kermit4karate]

Also considering that it's basically "what if everything you liked about 5e and Critical Role but different" vs a completely separate vibe and ruleset like Shadowdark.

DH is like 5e and CR but different, while Shadowdark is completely different. Got it.

 

[Aldarc]

DH is like 5e and CR but different, while Shadowdark is completely different. Got it.

IME, players coming from 5e D&D would probably have an easier time with SD than DH. SD is still f20. DH draws a lot on narrative systems and principles which mostly f20 players often consider “foreign” or “alien” to their conventional gaming sensibilities. (See “no Initiative” as an example.)

 

[Reynard]

IME, players coming from 5e D&D would probably have an easier time with SD than DH. SD is still f20. DH draws a lot on narrative systems and principles which mostly f20 players often consider “foreign” or “alien” to their conventional gaming sensibilities. (See “no Initiative” as an example.)

If the kinds of questions you see dominating the subreddits for these games are any indication, this is exactly right.

 

[kermit4karate]

IME, players coming from 5e D&D would probably have an easier time with SD than DH. SD is still f20. DH draws a lot on narrative systems and principles which mostly f20 players often consider “foreign” or “alien” to their conventional gaming sensibilities. (See “no Initiative” as an example.)

I wholeheartedly agree with 5e D&D players having an easier time with SD than DH. DH seems completely foreign (mechanically) to me. One can already run D&D similarly and many do, emphasizing narrative play. Again, D&D rules are malleable, but the dual d12 thing in DH adds a layer of complexity that didn't need to be there IMO.

I admit I haven't played DH or read the book yet, only watched part of a single game on YT, but I'm skeptical. I think it'll fizzle out. For games to go well I think they require a certain type of player with skills and interests that aren't mainstream. I bet it ends up being a niche game with a small, fervent following, but that's just one frog's opinion.

 

[Aldarc]

One can already run D&D similarly and many do, emphasizing narrative play.

What do you mean by "narrative play"? Because I'll be perfectly honest that based on past discussion you don't strike me as someone all that familiar with that would entail. Fans of the Cypher System, for example, say that it's a game that emphasizes "narrative play," but it actually runs like a fairly traditional TTRPG.

Again, D&D rules are malleable, but the dual d12 thing in DH adds a layer of complexity that didn't need to be there IMO. I admit I haven't played DH or read the book yet, only watched part of a single game on YT, but I'm skeptical.

Color me surprised.

I think it'll fizzle out. For games to go well I think they require a certain type of player with skills and interests that aren't mainstream. I bet it ends up being a niche game with a small, fervent following, but that's just one frog's opinion.

Funny thing. People said the same about Shadowdark.

 

[kermit4karate]

What do you mean by "narrative play"? Because I'll be perfectly honest that based on past discussion you don't strike me as someone all that familiar with that would entail. Fans of the Cypher System, for example, say that it's a game that emphasizes "narrative play," but it actually runs like a fairly traditional TTRPG.


Color me surprised.


Funny thing. People said the same about Shadowdark.

Ouch, touché. Fair enough. I just meant by letting the players with a good flair for the dramatic, the natural actors and theatrical folks at the table, have at it. If they're on a roll adding depth to the story for me, got others enraptured with their verisimilitude, I've still got my lists, tables, key encounters and keyed area maps in my pocket to get things moving again for when the player gets bogged down.

So yes, which I'm sure you just caught, by narrative play in D&D I'm not suggesting letting the players plot the entire course, although I believe one could still do that within the basic ruleset of D&D if they wanted to. I just don't imagine many would because that would make it too much like DH.

 

[Reynard]

That was fast. Sign ups opened a half hour ago from this posting and already I have 2 slots full and only 3 seats between the other 2 slots. 3 of the players are All in, which really helps with this kind of convention mini campaign.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Ouch, touché. Fair enough. I just meant by letting the players with a good flair for the dramatic, the natural actors and theatrical folks at the table, have at it.

And this is a textbook response for someone who has missed a quarter of a century of narrative game development.

Seriously "rules that don't get in the way" was the state of narrative systems round the turn of the millennium when Ron Edwards wrote his GNS essays that were an attempt to get people to design games that helped rather than at best minimally hindered narrativist fans. And it took years before they even had the first working prototype (2003 - My Life With Master) and another few years before the first non-ultra limited games were produced (2006 - Dogs in the Vineyard and Spirit of the Century).

And pretty much since 2010 with Apocalypse World, Smallville, and the Fate Core Kickstarter narrative games have been genuinely good and growing and developing. And Daggerheart has basically borrowed ideas from the past 15 years of narrative game development and woven them almost seamlessly into something that doesn't look very different to 5e in a bad light.

For Shadowdark Vs Daggerheart as a 5e off ramp Shadowdark looks easier. But Daggerheart is polished enough that things that look scary (like no initiative) turn out to only be an issue to groups that have pretty severe issues. (There are many posts asking how no initiative works from people who haven't tried it, but almost none from people who found it bad after trying it).

And Daggerheart is pretty close to the streamlined character driven game that IME a majority of people including a supermajority of Critters have been spending a vast amount of time and effort to force 5e to be.