Let's Talk About Core Game Mechanics

[payn]

Random question on this topic that came up as I was playing around with ideas today: when you are a player in a game do you prefer to affirmatively roll defense for your character or have the GM roll offense for your enemies?

Im weird in that I like the D&D model of "why not both". Where weapon attacks are rolled against a static defense, but saves are made by the player. I've thought about it over the years and I think it helps give a variety feel to the game. Melee and magic feel different, which yeah is a preference thing. The lighter, more narrative driven the game, the more I like players roll everything. Though in a crunchier system I prefer a blend to give sense of that variety.

I also play some crunchy ass wargames and I can work through charts and multiple roll resolution items like im blowing my nose. I know a lot of folks just slow to a crawl in such situations, so I get why making a universal check system is appealing.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah, that's where I'm at (even in PBTAs like Dungeon World/Stonetop), because I have the damage #s in front of me and then can work the roll immediately into my narration of what's changing in the world.

I prefer (damage-defense) over die+mod vs target number because it gives you more granularity over possible results.

 

[zakael19]

I prefer (damage-defense) over die+mod vs target number because it gives you more granularity over possible results.

Can you give me an example? I'm not Sur eI know what this means off the top of my head.

 

[TwoSix]

Im weird in that I like the D&D model of "why not both". Where weapon attacks are rolled against a static defense, but saves are made by the player. I've thought about it over the years and I think it helps give a variety feel to the game. Melee and magic feel different, which yeah is a preference thing. The lighter, more narrative driven the game, the more I like players roll everything. Though in a crunchier system I prefer a blend to give sense of that variety.

I also play some crunchy ass wargames and I can work through charts and multiple roll resolution items like im blowing my nose. I know a lot of folks just slow to a crawl in such situations, so I get why making a universal check system is appealing.

I mean, I also wouldn't be opposed to a "both sides" roll anything approach, either. Make everything into opposed checks.

But merging "confirm attack, then roll damage" into "how effective is the attack" just seems like a good way to smooth out table operations. And using different dice and special dice mechanics can still provide texture to different types of attacks.

 

[Reynard]

Yeah exactly. I like that too. I'm curious though how many 5 round fights can the party be in before one PC out of the 4 dies?

That's up to them.

 

[Reynard]

Yeah I'm coming around to "roll to defend" mechanics. I'm even open to the idea that "the GM never rolls dice".

No thanks. As the GM, I am still playing -- especially when the minis come out.

 

[TwoSix]

Can you give me an example? I'm not Sur eI know what this means off the top of my head.

I mean you can attach various conditions to the result of an action based on the overall damage roll. You could have an ability that says "If you do at least 5 damage on the attack, X condition also occurs." Or you could have another ability that says "If this attack does 0 or less damage, the defender gains X benefit."

Not that you can't do this with confirmation rolls, of course; PF2 does this with their success/critical success/failure/critical failure results. But I like it attaching to damage more because damage measures the magnitude of the final result, and you can tie the magnitude of the consequence directly to the magnitude of that result.

 

[500 Toads]

shrug GM rolls for NPC offense, players roll for PC defense where applicable.

GM rolling introduces a fair bit of variability and allows the GM to consider resource usage etc. as appropriate; for instance, allocating dice pools between multiple actions, attempting to augment a roll using a related skill or passion, that sort of thing. Some systems have PC abilities that can in some way directly muck with NPC rolls, too.

PCs in some systems have to make actual decisions about defense, because they may be sacrificing their action or attack for the turn; may be locked into picking either parrying or dodging but not both in the same round; may opt not to defend because they would be penalized on another attempt to defend against an expected, more dire threat in the same round; using dice pools; burning resources like hero points, or spell points for reaction spells; etc.

 

[zakael19]

I mean you can attach various conditions to the result of an action based on the overall damage roll. You could have an ability that says "If you do at least 5 damage on the attack, X condition also occurs." Or you could have another ability that says "If this attack does 0 or less damage, the defender gains X benefit."

Gotcha! Yeah, DH has this thing where your raw damage numbers convert over to Thresholds (Minor/Major/Severe) which determine the actual HP you do/take and lets you play around with a bunch of design space there ("When you deal Major damage... when you would take Severe damage... you ignore Minor damage...etc).

 

[Reynard]

Gotcha! Yeah, DH has this thing where your raw damage numbers convert over to Thresholds (Minor/Major/Severe) which determine the actual HP you do/take and lets you play around with a bunch of design space there ("When you deal Major damage... when you would take Severe damage... you ignore Minor damage...etc).

Damage Thresholds have been around forever. When I see them trip people up in DH (and I am not saying this is you zakael19) I can immediately guess they are coming from 5E without a lot of experience outside of D&D. In actuality, that is true of a lot of responses to specific DHisms, because most of them are lifted -- with acknowledgement -- from other RPGs.

Which is interesting: DH has a clear core mechanic, but is not afraid to bolt on subsystems and even encourages you to do so with your campaign frames. If only it were just a touch more generic...