D&D General The 5e Ninja, would it be a class or a subclass?

[Li Shenron]

Back in 3e, Complete Adventurer had a 20-level Ninja class. If WoTC brought the Ninja class into 5e (for a possible 5e Kara-Tur setting? ), would it be its' own class or would it be a subclass of another class (such as the Monk or the Rogue)? And if it was its' own class, what would everyone like to see in it? Ditto for subclasses.

Even though the name is different, the Ninja has been in 5e since the start as the Monk subclass.

It would make sense to make a full Ninja class for a fantasy setting where the character concept is more prominent, and widespread enough for it to require further significant differentiation through its own subclasses. For example, in an oriental setting there could be both a Ninja and a Samurai base class (perhaps at such point even replacing the Fighter).

There is another aspect to consider which is the sort of "prestige vibe" that the concept of Ninja carries, meaning that in a lot of stories those who enter the path of Ninja need to be already somewhat advanced, which strides a bit with having 1st-level Ninjas. But this may vary depending on the fantasy setting own story, and in another setting being trained as ninjas since childhood might be the norm.

So I don't think one option is generally better than the other.

As a background though, I don't think it is appropriate. It doesn't fit with the original meaning of a background (what you do or did for a living), but admittedly this meaning is lost already since WotC messed up with lots of background variations. Still, a background is too small to capture the many facets of a Ninja.

 

[Clint_L]

I dunno, a shadow monk with poisoner and actor feats pretty much checks all the boxes. You got your stealth, grappling and striking skill, incredible speed and maneuverability, deflect attacks, evasion, stuns, some on-theme magical abilities, poison, impersonation. At higher levels they can run up walls and stuff like that. I don't see any big gaps in the build.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Why should this be necessary? As long as the player knows what it does its enough.

Its really just authoritorian fantasy of many GMs that they need to know what player classes do (in order to forbid it etc.)

The GM will learn what the class does when playing and might get surprised which can also be a form of joy.

It's not about control or authoritarian fantasies. It's about:

1. The fact that when I know a class and a less experienced player unfamiliar with it is trying to play it I can help them with it even when dealing with the myriad other things gumming up my DM brain. I can even spot when they are doing things that should be impossible for their class. This is not about "catching" players, it's about keeping them from accidentally breaking the game by honestly misunderstanding abilities, as almost every new player has at some point, and just generally keeping things on an even keel.
2. Once in a blue moon a character has something that truly breaks encounters with particular parameters. I don't want to rain on that parade, I want to figure out times when we can potentially showcase that ability, while also preserving other people's fun by not having it trivialize the most major encounters. Advance knowledge is really helpful here.

It's not like it's the end of the world to me if there was a ninja class, I just like having the total number of classes relatively manageable and would not like to see it get over, I don't know, 16 or so. I personally am not comfortable running a game until I've read through all the classes and gotten a rough feel for them, and at some point it becomes unmanageable. Having enough GMs in the world requires having a few of us willing to try to run games we've not yet actually played or at least have not played extensively, so they need to be digestable, and a game with 47 classes probaly isn't. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Corinnguard]

The Popular Japanese Aneme/Manga version of a ninja is a 20 level half caster.

I would go for the Shinobi in the Naruto anime for this. Give them a feature where they get to start out with an affinity toward one element (air, earth, fire, lightning and water) and pick up several more as they level up. With regards to subclasses, there could be one for those players who want a psionic ninja (Genjitsu), those who want to physically buff themselves up (Taijitsu), or possess a bloodline ability (Kekkai Genkai) that's unique to their clan.

 

[Tigris]

It's not about control or authoritarian fantasies. It's about:

Thats also ehat an authorian GM would say

1. The fact that when I know a class and a less experienced player unfamiliar with it is trying to play it I can help them with it even when dealing with the myriad other things gumming up my DM brain.

This helping can also be done with other experienced players no need to "gummung up a GM brain".

I can even spot when they are doing things that should be impossible for their class. This is not about "catching" players, it's about keeping them from accidentally breaking the game by honestly misunderstanding abilities, as almost every new player has at some point, and just generally keeping things on an even keel.

The game is stable enough that small mistakes dont break the game. And if something sounds strange one can always ask the player if they are sure and can do it next sessions correctly. The game is so unbalanced with classe subclasses playerskill etc. That the definition of what feels keen is quite wide.

2. Once in a blue moon a character has something that truly breaks encounters with particular parameters. I don't want to rain on that parade, I want to figure out times when we can potentially showcase that ability, while also preserving other people's fun by not having it trivialize the most major encounters. Advance knowledge is really helpful here.

With other peoples fun you mean your fun. Players will just laugh about it. And also you will not have the major encounter as the first encounter. And you will naturally learn by playing what the class can do. Also levelups are normally after major encounters not directly before in case they get a new cool powerfull feature.

It's not like it's the end of the world to me if there was a ninja class, I just like having the total number of classes relatively manageable and would not like to see it get over, I don't know, 16 or so. I personally am not comfortable running a game until I've read through all the classes and gotten a rough feel for them, and at some point it becomes unmanageable.

So this is a you problem. And something you can try to improve yourself with. Start to trust players more and get comfortable to run games where you have 100% no clue qhat classes do. This will also mean less work for you! And also that you can genuinely grt surprised by players more often, which is cool.

Having enough GMs in the world requires having a few of us willing to try to run games we've not yet actually played or at least have not played extensively, so they need to be digestable, and a game with 47 classes probaly isn't. Your mileage may vary.

Well a huge part of why we font have enough GMs is because being a GM is always pictured as this authorian figure who needs to know all and controll all which sounds for many people horrible.


So making it clear that GMs can also be different as in trusting the players and having other players handle the rules so they can focus on the story, can help getting more GMs in the long run.


Also a GM is only 1 of 5 or so players on a table, so also only counts gor 1/5th of the oppinions. So even if many GMs feel the same if players want more classes they overvote them by a huge factor.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Other people have already talked about this, but if what you mean by ninja is “a character who can do the things a ninja is supposed to be able to do” 5e has all that covered. If you mean a character in a land where people talk about ninja in hushed whispers, then you could make a class (along with samurai etc), or you could do it as a background.

And this gets into the territory of are class names a real thing in your game world, or are they just labels for a set of mechanics? People play it either way, or do a bit of both.

For myself, if new player were to join my table and said “I want to play a ninja” I would point them at shadow monk and assassin.

 

[Gorck]

Ninja could be a Monk or Rogue subclass. I don't know if it wouldn't be too close to them as a full class.

It certainly wouldn’t be the only class that was “too close” to other classes. One could make the argument that a Paladin should be a subclass of the Fighter or Cleric. Or that the Ranger should be a subclass of the Fighter or Druid. And yet, we have them both as individual classes, so I don’t see why a Ninja class that’s a Monk/Rogue hybrid couldn’t work.

 

[Corinnguard]

It certainly wouldn’t be the only class that was “too close” to other classes. One could make the argument that a Paladin should be a subclass of the Fighter or Cleric. Or that the Ranger should be a subclass of the Fighter or Druid. And yet, we have them both as individual classes, so I don’t see why a Ninja class that’s a Monk/Rogue hybrid couldn’t work.

Especially since PF1 already has a number of hybrid classes such as the Arcanist (Wizard/Sorcerer), Brawler (Fighter/Monk), Slayer (Ranger/Rogue), etc.

 

[Tigris]

It certainly wouldn’t be the only class that was “too close” to other classes. One could make the argument that a Paladin should be a subclass of the Fighter or Cleric. Or that the Ranger should be a subclass of the Fighter or Druid. And yet, we have them both as individual classes, so I don’t see why a Ninja class that’s a Monk/Rogue hybrid couldn’t work.

But both paladin and ranger are (in 5e) half casters. They are mechanically distinct from the classes you mention. (Of course some fighter and cleric subclasses go into these directions but there eather these subclasses are a problem not the paladin and ranger)


Monks and rogues both are martial characters just doing basic attacks. So a hybrid of them would also just do basic attacks.

Final fantasy D20 has hybrid classes and there the Ninja is exactly a hybrid of Monk and thief: Ninja

But both the monk and thief are in that system more unique from one another because the monk can do special attacks with the ki (nor just basic attacks) and the thief has a lot more stealthy talents etc also one is full bab other not.


In 5e the base class of monk and thief are not that far away. Sure monk gets a ressource but the ressource is mostly used to improve the basic things the class does (attacking moving). And the stun which is not really that typical ninja either.

 

[Steampunkette]

What I'm hearing is that a historically accurate ninja would be a bard subclass. And frankly, a bard subclass that's rogue-like (in the same way the valor bard is fighter-like and the lore bard is wizard-like) wouldn't be half bad.

Ever seen the Athasian Bard class? It's an assassin for reasons!