D&D General D&D 3.5 - splatbook power creep or no?

[DeadlyUematsu]

I'm significantly more inclined to selectively import stuff from PF1 and Mongoose/FFG/AEG/Atlas Penumbra than I am to grab from 3.5 outside of the 3.5 Forgotten Realms books, and even then, my inclusions from those taper off after ~2005ish.

Can't fault you for that. Based on the timeline of Orcus (the original 4E prototype), they were well into evacuating the 3.5e space by 2006 which is definitely reflected in the products they made for 2006 and 2007.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

3e was designed around system master.

In every book there was

1. S tier stuff
2. A tier stuff
3. B tier stuff
4. C tier stuff
5. D tier stuff
6. F tier stuff

As time went on, and optimizer player could swap out their Bs and Cs out their potential optiond with Ss and As.

It rewarded system mastery but based on what was actually published, it falls more into the bucket of a supplemental treadmill than an intentional puzzle. So optimizers come ahead in largely unexpected ways (Rainbow Brite trumping over Fireball Man) due to the lack of coherent vision of what system mastery meant across the line.

 

[VHawkwinter]

3e was designed around system mastery.

In every book there was

1. S tier stuff
2. A tier stuff
3. B tier stuff
4. C tier stuff
5. D tier stuff
6. F tier stuff

As time went on, an optimizer player could swap out their Bs and Cs out their potential optiond with Ss and As.

That is true. It is a definite shortcoming of the system.

 

[VHawkwinter]

Can't fault you for that. Based on the timeline of Orcus (the original 4E prototype), they were well into evacuating the 3.5e space by 2006 which is definitely reflected in the products they made for 2006 and 2007.

Yeah, people often seem to think of it as "3.5 is a game from 2003 to 2008" but I really would see it more as "3.x spanned from 2000 to 2005, with things being more minis-focused after 2003; 2006 to 2008 have a bunch of weird 4e prototype material that doesn't match; and then Paizo picked it up again and did their own thing with it, which was mostly inline with the 2003-2005 gameplay paradigm with only a few tweaks, from 2009 to 2019."

Either way though, it's weird to think that Pathfinder supported the core 3.x engine on their own longer than Wizards did.

But a lot of my favourite material overall is from the 3.0 era. I think the change in focus for 3.5 to being more of a minis game was generally not for the better.

 

[Horwath]

the bloat sure can be reduced to "core books"

PHB 1&2
Player Guide to Faerun/Eberron
"Complete X" books.

maybe add:
Bo9S
Unearthed arcana.

just ignore everything else.

 

[VHawkwinter]

the bloat sure can be reduced to "core books"

PHB 1&2
Player Guide to Faerun/Eberron
"Complete X" books.

maybe add:
Bo9S
Unearthed arcana.

just ignore everything else.

A very interesting foil to what I just said where those were almost all books in the categories I said I would exclude.

It's kind of funny how you can get totally different "games" out of 3.x from one group to another.

 

[Tonguez]

The good Splatbooks were great for adding cool options and expanding the game

The bad Splatbooks were terrible for adding power without considering how they might balance with the rest of the game

It required DMs to police what they would allow in to their games - which becomes yet another point of tension between DMs and demanding Players.

The sheer quantity of stuff, release schedules and human need for Kewl probably made power creep inevitable

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I voted “Yes”, mainly because of the sheer volume of spells that were available for the PHB’s full casters.

And you had people who just wanted to play weird and different things

raises hand

After playing most of the stereotypical character types in AD&D and 2Ed, I started developing a taste for designing PCs that were outside of the box, like a Drow Rgr/Dr/M-U (years before Drizzt saw print), an albino Minotaur Ftr/M-U, and a Player’s Option Cleric that was functionally similar to a Ftr/Cl/M-U limited to buffing & protection of other characters.

That continued in the D20 era, and only got stronger with each new 3.5Ed release. By the time 4Ed was visible on the horizon, I hadn’t created a “normal” character in years. My character brainstorming threads here are a pretty good record of where my mind was wandering within 3.5Ed.

(FWIW, I know I’m probably in the minority on this, but even though 3.5Ed is my favorite iteration of D&D, I really didn’t care for Bo9S.)

 

[GrimCo]

Few things to remember. In 3.5 era, legally buying pdf-s wasn't really a thing. WoTC never had real webshop with full digital releases for it's entire 3.5 catalogue. That meant you were mostly stuck with what was available in physical copies, be it in bookstores or your local game store (local being strech, since not every town has one). Even Amazon in those days wasn't Amazon of today, so online ordering was also patchy at best.

So while in theory 3.5 had tons of splatbooks, availability was iffy. Even marketing wasn't there, so if something new came out, it could easy slip under the radar.

If you lived outside of USA and maybe UK, all of the above just got worse. 7 seas of internet was best option for getting books, but even then, it required a) that you know book exists and b) someone scanned it and uploaded it. Quality of those scans was all over the place, from barley legible b&w to pretty solid in color.

Even if you managed to get your hands on all the books, it was like prospecting for gold. You need to sift trough lot of dirt to find those few gold nuggets. And for what? For few broken combos that are marginally better than big 3 full casters from phb.

From personal experience, lot's of tier 3-4 classes / prestige classes are actually pretty balanced. If you have full party of those, even with all splatbooks, power creep just isn't there.

If, for some masochistic reason unknown, i was to run 3.5 today, first thing on ban list are classes from PHB, namley Wizard, Cleric and Druid. Also, fighter gets removed, Warblade from Bo9S is new default "fighter".

My list would be: Core (without big 3), PHB2, Bo9S, Complete series, Heroes of Horror (minus Archivist, that one is bonkers), Tome of Magic, Races books, Environment books (Frostburn, Sandstorm). Lot's of interesting stuff in those, bunch of options, but nothing bonkers or game breaking. Also, i would limit game to sweet spot levels (3-8 roughly) and call it a day.

 

[VHawkwinter]

FWIW, I know I’m probably in the minority on this, but even though 3.5Ed is my favorite iteration of D&D, I really didn’t care for Bo9S

Mine is 3.0, but I knew very few people who liked Bo9S. Some people thought it was too shonen anime; others like myself didn't like encounter powers; but I remember it as the book everyone banned.