Daggerheart Discussion

[zakael19]

No, it not. I'm using "handwaving" as in "introducing something you had not previously had set up in the situation on the fly". I do, indeed, consider that handwaving even if there's a mechanic that lets you do it. Some of it on a small scale is unavoidable, but doing it on a larger scale is not something I consider a virtue with a more improvisational GMing style and I've done it myself.

No, it's called "making a Move in accordance with the Principles and Best Practices of the game," and is explicitly held up as a virtue when working towards the overall goals of Daggerheart (collaborate with your players; fill teh world with life, wonder, and danger; when in doubt go for the dramatic thing; never negate character success; etc).

And just to be clear, historical druids were not "nature priests" as far as we know -- and frankly we do not know a lot, especially since the term "druid" got completely bastardized in the New Age era. As far as we know they were judges and lorekeepers across multiple Celtic cultures, and no game that I am.aware of has ever focused on that.

The game I've best seen channel a really good version of "devotee of the Earth Goddess steeped in lore" is Stonetop. The Blessed there does things like enact the seasonal rites; perform wards and bindings to keep away things of evil and ill luck; draw upon their connection to the spirits to borrow power for a time; and other such things. No shapeshifting, but they do have "Heed My Words: When you Persuade by talking sense or warning against foolishness, you have advantage."

Very different game than the standard heroic fantasy adventuring thing though!

 

[zakael19]

Tangentially related to Class discussion. I'm finalizing the spin on the 4e-esque Cleric (first draft here) I put together for folks like me who genuinely want to play classic D&D stuff with DH, where the Seraph feels a little more out of place then any other class. I think that means I need to turn to the other half of that coin, and do a paladin.

I think I'll keep the "prayer dice" mechanic since it's neat and I swapped over a Channel Divinity for teh Cleric side, but debating where to go with the subclasses. As somebody who grew up with Warcraft and then a fair bit of 5e, themed Auras seem like a place to start maybe?

 

[Thomas Shey]

No, it's called "making a Move in accordance with the Principles and Best Practices of the game," and is explicitly held up as a virtue when working towards the overall goals of Daggerheart (collaborate with your players; fill teh world with life, wonder, and danger; when in doubt go for the dramatic thing; never negate character success; etc).

Somebody can define something as they wish; it does not change my view of it.

 

[Tigris]

I am curious what archetypes you were thinking of outside of modern TTRPGs and video games for the Druid. I can't think of a single current view of the druid in any gaming space that hasn't fully embraced the shapeshifter combat role -- not since the late 90s anyway.

• And just to be clear, historical druids were not "nature priests" as far as we know -- and frankly we do not know a lot, especially since the term "druid" got completely bastardized in the New Age era. As far as we know they were judges and lorekeepers across multiple Celtic cultures, and no game that I am.aware of has ever focused on that.

The Daggerheart druid isn't the "D&D druid" -- it is the broad "gaming druid" of the last 3 decades or so.

I do agree that in gaming animal transformation is often used for druids. Partially because D&D partially because WoW however its not always the case and for sure not always such a strong general feature.

Even the WoW druid and the D&D 5e druid had only some "subclasses" focused on beast form, many 5e subclasses even have alternative uses for animal form. Meanwhile in daggerheart thats the strongest feature for all druids.


But well about other forms of druids:

• the best known druid: https://aogames.fandom.com/wiki/Getafix is a kind of wise alchemist
• In Witcher (the really successfull computer game and books) druids are scholars of the forests. Magical casters close to nature. https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Druid
• In magic the gathering, one of the most influential games ever which btw makes more money than DnD, druids are literal nature priests: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Druid
• In elderscrolls, one of the most successfull game series (skyrim is in top 10 most sold games) druids are also a form of nature worshiping priests also connected with death: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Druids
• The druid in Inis the well received board game is a wise figure learning from the past: https://inis-game.fandom.com/wiki/Druid
• In mythology Mug Ruith: A highly powerful Irish Archdruid who could raise storms
• In PF2 only 1 subclass can transform into animals, the druid is just a nature based caster (with primal spells).
• In 13th age only 1 "partial class" of the druid can transform into animals. Other ones can have an animal companion or are a fighter of nature or a land/nature based castee.
• In D&D 4e only 1 out of the 3 druid classes could transform into animals. Another had an animal companion and the last could summon plants to hinder enemies

 

[aramis erak]

The keyword there being D&D.
Daggerheart isn't D&D.

If I wanted D&D, I'd get D&D.

I want a Druid. Not whatever D&D is.

I don't mind a subclass - "that guy from D&D".
But baking it in as a generic class feature when it's such a hyper-specific concept that only D&D players and WoW players have a reference for bothers me. Especially as it's only part of recent D&D as something that is a powerhouse unlimited best martial in the game idea. Up through third edition it was a mid to high level very limited times per day ability to more or less become some small non-combat critter until you'd gotten way up there if ever. Druid didn't appear in the core 4th edition book - which instead had new classes like warlock and warlord. I imagine it was in a supplement somewhere but I don't have that to check.

It is greatly ironic that, amongst the magical abilities associated with the Druidic faith in Dark Ages Brittain is the ability to shapeshift. Sufficiently so that in certain versions of the myth, Merlin teaches Arthur's to fly by shapeshifting into a bird. Morgan Le Fey and Merlin are shapeshifters in most of the variations of the theme.

Even in the versions where Merlin and Morgan are not shapeshifters, they are able to glamour people, including themselves, into the seeming of another.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Even the WoW druid and the D&D 5e druid had only some "subclasses" focused on beast form, many 5e subclasses even have alternative uses for animal form. Meanwhile in daggerheart thats the strongest feature for all druids.

In Daggerheart that is the feature that differentiates them from other classes. It's a strong feature (so are all the base class features). When you look at the Druid the first things visible about them are Druid (Arcana/Sage) in other words "Magical Caster/Close to nature". Daggerheart druids are magical casters close to nature. Their base class feature is in third place and what differentiates them from other magical casters and other people close to nature. And one of the ways of emphasising how close to nature they are is that they wild shape.

But where does the Druid's ability to shapeshift come from? Mythological transformation chases are a thing across a whole lot of mythologies.

The logic is very simple:

1. Magical shapeshifters are a cool and fun archetype, well worth representing and the game is better with this archetype
2. Due to the way Daggerheart power budgets work and the strength of shapeshifting this needs to be done by a base class
3. If we are going to do this the Druid has a lot of association, particularly in modern mythology, with the shapeshifting caster

And because of the way Daggerheart domains work you can go almost pure arcane magic with them or almost pure nature magic. It covers a broad range of shapeshifting tricksters that, whether you like it or not, are most strongly associated with druids.

But this doesn't mean that Daggerheart druids are the only nature casters. There are also Rangers which can range from the D&D ranger with a splash of nature magic to pretty heavy nature casters and almost certainly from H&F Witches who cover Sage and Dread - the nature/death alliance and potions which is a very definite archetype.

So Daggerheart takes a big archetype (magical flexible shapeshifters) and associates it with a class they are already associated with while covering other archetypes related to the class.

But well about other forms of druids:

• the best known druid: https://aogames.fandom.com/wiki/Getafix is a kind of wise alchemist

So ... an outlier. A village alchemist and not like the others. And a Daggerheart witch.

• In Witcher (the really successfull computer game and books) druids are scholars of the forests. Magical casters close to nature. https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Druid
• In magic the gathering, one of the most influential games ever which btw makes more money than DnD, druids are literal nature priests: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Druid
• The druid in Inis the well received board game is a wise figure learning from the past: https://inis-game.fandom.com/wiki/Druid

In M:tG and Inis they zoom out and don't cover all abilities. Druids are magical casters close to nature. In the Witcher druids are magical casters close to nature although I suspect witches.

• In elderscrolls, one of the most successfull game series (skyrim is in top 10 most sold games) druids are also a form of nature worshiping priests also connected with death: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Druids

So ... Daggerheart witches in other words. I can live with that.

• In mythology Mug Ruith: A highly powerful Irish Archdruid who could raise storms

Who among other things could change his size and shape, turning into a giant. A magical shapeshifting druid.

• In PF2 only 1 subclass can transform into animals, the druid is just a nature based caster (with primal spells).

And Daggerheart didn't want to be boring and make the druid just a nature based caster with natural spells.

• In 13th age only 1 "partial class" of the druid can transform into animals. Other ones can have an animal companion or are a fighter of nature or a land/nature based castee.

So 13th Age druids can shapeshift. Meanwhile if you want to be a nature based caster in Daggerheart or a nature magical fighter (frequently with a beast companion) you play a Ranger leaning into the Sage domain. So... your problem is that the archetypes got shuffled slightly.

• In D&D 4e only 1 out of the 3 druid classes could transform into animals. Another had an animal companion and the last could summon plants to hinder enemies

You mean the first one could - and the others were more obscure. The second is at the Magical/Sage end of Ranger.

 

[Tigris]

In Daggerheart that is the feature that differentiates them from other classes. It's a strong feature (so are all the base class features). When you look at the Druid the first things visible about them are Druid (Arcana/Sage) in other words "Magical Caster/Close to nature". Daggerheart druids are magical casters close to nature. Their base class feature is in third place and what differentiates them from other magical casters and other people close to nature. And one of the ways of emphasising how close to nature they are is that they wild shape.

Really you argue about the order it is in the book, which no one except some GM reads, when most people play with cards, so in which order people read stuff can be any, like I did read my subclass first.

Also EVERY class gets 2 disciplines and almost every class in daggerheart has a spellcasting stat (only guardian and fighter are not), so almost everyone is a caster. Also Sage does not need to have to do anything with nature: Definition of SAGE also "arcane" does mean mysterious not spellcaster in general its D&D context again where this means casting arcane spells: Definition of ARCANE


The one big defining feature for the Druid is the beastform, in which they btw. CANNOT cast spells. So they are farther away from being a caster than many other classes since they have a class feature actively hindering them to cast spells. A rogue is more spellcaster than a druid in daggerheart.


Also the Druid forms are so badly balanced, that from level 2 on a druid which never uses spellcasting and only beastform is still stronger than most other characters, which discourages them further from spellcasting.


This all makes the daggerheart druid more limited than the druid in other games. Since yes "the first 4e Druid could change shape" but that only made a tiny percentage of their power, you could still perfectly play with that druid a mostly ranged caster (which used the shapechange only in rare cases when enemies surround them or so). Thats the big difference: In other games you can shapeshift as a druid in daggerheart you must.


There is a difference between "a druid can shapechange" (which brings utility/flexibility) and "the druid does shapechange to turn into a murder machine".


The daggerheart Druid is the WoW Feral druid. 1 Specific build/flavour of druid. I dont see how this is "less boring" than doing it like almost all games in leaving players at least the choice to be a murderbear or a nature caster.

The critique here is not that "the druid can transform into an animal", but thats that the only real flavour of the druid which only presents a fraction of what people understand from druid.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Really you argue about the order it is in the book, which no one except some GM reads, when most people play with cards, so in which order people read stuff can be any, like I did read my subclass first.

Nope. I argue about the presentation. The Domains are important. The first thing presented.

Also EVERY class gets 2 disciplines and almost every class in daggerheart has a spellcasting stat (only guardian and fighter are not), so almost everyone is a caster. Also Sage does not need to have to do anything with nature: Definition of SAGE also "arcane" does mean mysterious not spellcaster in general its D&D context again where this means casting arcane spells: Definition of ARCANE

Every class gets two Domains - and each domain is a huge thing about that class. If you have a spellcasting stat and no spells does that make you a spellcaster?

Daggerheart domains break down to me into four groups regarding magicality:

• Cinematic: Blade, Valour, Bone. These are not casters just larger than life people.
• Liminal: Grace, Midnight. There's a whole lot of cinematic skill and plausible deniability and how far into casting they go is character specific
• Magically Skilled: Sage, Splendour, Blood. These domains are magically backed skill; mostly spells but some larger than life skills
• Pure magic: Arcana, Codex, Dread. These domains are pure casting.

The one big defining feature for the Druid is the beastform, in which they btw. CANNOT cast spells. So they are farther away from being a caster than many other classes since they have a class feature actively hindering them to cast spells. A rogue is more spellcaster than a druid in daggerheart.

Let's actually look at the rules and see what they say. In specific let's look at the domain cards.

• Of the 21 Arcana cards 20 are spells, with the only exception being Arcana-Touched. It's a pure caster domain
• Of the 21 Sage cards the only ones that aren't spells are the level 1 Nature's Tongue and Gifted Tracker, Level 6 Forager, Level 7 Sage-Touched, and level 9 Fane of the Wilds. It's magically skilled.

While you are level 5 or below and using Sage and Arcana you can have a maximum of two domain abilities that aren't spells. You're a caster with one of the blastiest ability sets.

Meanwhile for the rogue

• Of the 21 Grace cards 2 level 1, 1 level 2, 1 level 4, 1 level 6, 2 level 7, 1 level 9, and 1 level 10 ability are abilities and not magic
• Of the 21 Midnight cards 1 level 1, 1 level 3, 1 level 4, 1 level 7, 1 level 8, and 1 level 9 domain cards are abilities

And this doesn't even count "liminal spells" such as Uncanny Disguise.

It is impossible to make a druid that is not a caster beyond level 1 - and Arcana spells and even Sage spells are pretty much always flashy. Meanwhile when a rogue uses e.g. Words of Discord the card is a spell but it is easy to fluff as they are just that good at causing confusion. It's possible to make a magical rogue or a liminal one. It's basically impossible to make a druid that's not a caster.

Also the Druid forms are so badly balanced, that from level 2 on a druid which never uses spellcasting and only beastform is still stronger than most other characters, which discourages them further from spellcasting.

Not if the players are good. A beastform druid is competent. Not expert.

This all makes the daggerheart druid more limited than the druid in other games.

LOL. "If you ignore their abilities because you don't know how to use them then they seem limited."

Meanwhile every single D&D druid in 3.X or 5e is a primary caster who goes up to level 9 spells and uses spell slots. Every single D&D druid from 3e onwards is a shapeshifting power-caster who has access to the entire range of druid spells appropriate for their level (they just need to long rest to change them). There is only one significant choice a druid makes in 5e after level one, and that is their subclass at level 3.

Since yes "the first 4e Druid could change shape" but that only made a tiny percentage of their power, you could still perfectly play with that druid a mostly ranged caster (which used the shapechange only in rare cases when enemies surround them or so). Thats the big difference: In other games you can shapeshift as a druid in daggerheart you must.

There is nothing forcing you to shapeshift in Daggerheart. If you're a decent player it's just a part of your toolbox. I've seen druids spend multiple sessions in a row in base form because it was what was appropriate and they had spells they wanted to use. Meanwhile every single 5e Druid from level 2 onwards can shapeshift. And apparently in your world "can" means "must"?

The Daggerheart druid is good at shapeshifting. Not good enough that it's the only thing the best druids do.

There is a difference between "a druid can shapechange" (which brings utility/flexibility) and "the druid does shapechange to turn into a murder machine".

So your problem is that people turn into bears to fight because it's fun and effective rather than simply stick to turning into owls and rats to scout (which cause much bigger conservation of mass problems).

The daggerheart Druid is the WoW Feral druid. 1 Specific build/flavour of druid. I dont see how this is "less boring" than doing it like almost all games in leaving players at least the choice to be a murderbear or a nature caster.

No it's not. It is you saying "this is the only way I want to play it therefore it is the only way it can be played". The Daggerheart druid is also the 3.5 druid who stays mostly in humanoid form but occasionally turns into a bear to fight. And the 5e Moon druid who has a decent spell list or can turn into an animal. Or when you level up one of the new 5e Kaiju Druids.

That you personally want to play a Druid as a WoW Feral Druid and think the only thing they do is wild shape shows your limits.

The critique here is not that "the druid can transform into an animal", but thats that the only real flavour of the druid which only presents a fraction of what people understand from druid.

And the reality is I have seen druids that do more from the orthodox Feral Druid to essentially nature elementals to someone cursed not to really have a true form to a wandering sorcerer who treated beastsforms as big spells. That you can only see how to work one way is your limitation.