World's Largest Dungeon in actual play [Spoilers!]

Taken literally the way the SRD has this written, any incorporeal creature that attempted to pass through a wall would then be eternally trapped in it, as they can not pass fully out of it again. The back of the wall would be their new front as they try to retreat, a surface they can't move from adjacent to. Just the same as the front was this way to them on the first pass through. The way the SRD nerfs incorporeality is beyond dumb.

Does anyone actually rule incorporeality this way and what have been your experiences with it if so?

Firebird said:

Wow, is that ever ridiculous. So a ghost can pass through the front of a wall as easy as pie but can't go out the back of it? I don't know of any DM's who actually run incorporeal creatures that way. Very nonsensical to me. Any rational as to why they can't pass through?

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I don't read it that way.

The SRD said that it can't pass through "an object with a space is larger than its own".
"Space" has a special meaning in d20.
An incorporeal being could pass through a 5' wall, but not a 10' one (unless it was a Large incorporeal being).
Also it "must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior" which means that as long as any space that they wish to move to contains or borders a point external to the object that is in contiguous contact to an external point in the space that they are moving from then they are OK.

In case the above is not clear - a medium incorporeal creature could not pass diagonally through a 10' by 10' object even though the space they are moving from and the space they are moving to are adjacent to the exterior of the object because those external interfaces are not contiguous. They could however go up one side then turn 90 degrees and go along another edge even if it was impossible to corporeally go around the object, as the mid point would enable it to "swap" which exterior surface it was adjacent to.

I've attached an image showing OK paths (in green) and not OK path (in red). The red path won't work because the creature can't reach the other surface without "letting go" of the first. Both green routes enable the other external surface to be "reached" without forgoing the original surface. (the grey squares are solid, the white background is open space)

ps - note that in WLD that the walls (and doors - at least in region E) prevent passage through them, otherwise it would be a pretty ineffective prison for incorporeal creatures (unless all walls AND DOORS were 10' thick for medium size captives and bigger for larger creatures).

erucsbo said:

I don't read it that way.

snip

ps - note that in WLD that the walls (and doors - at least in region E) prevent passage through them, otherwise it would be a pretty ineffective prison for incorporeal creatures (unless all walls AND DOORS were 10' thick for medium size captives and bigger for larger creatures).

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oh dear god

i've been away for a few days

and look what the SRD did to all of you?

sigh

you've got erucsbo drawing diagrams

next he's going to have to explain AOO as it pertains to kraken's reaching tentacles

Firebird said:

Wow, is that ever ridiculous. So a ghost can pass through the front of a wall as easy as pie but can't go out the back of it? I don't know of any DM's who actually run incorporeal creatures that way. Very nonsensical to me. Any rational as to why they can't pass through?

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A ghost is ethereal and can pass through anything it likes.

A manifesting ghost is incorporeal and must remain adjacent to the empty space.

Incorporeal is not ethereal.

I have to admit, it wasn't until this was pointed out to me that I realized that I was running it wrong. However, the fact that incorporeal isn't considered a massively powerful ability is probably the reason for it.

I'm just glad that Region E's walls prevent incorporeal travel... can you imagine how brutal it'd be to have all 40+ shadows going through the walls? They might have even been able to take out the celestials to the north!

Although, I don't know quite why the maruts didn't just wade in and clean out the shadows... being constructs and immune to STR drain and all. *shrug* I know the story says they really don't think the shadows are a threat, but there's Persal the Slayer, who the random encounters say shows up down there every so often. (My players are meeting him next session.)

Per the book I was reading the rule was, in part, to stop incorpreal creatures from just traveling though the 'earth' willy-nilly.

As erucsbo says, medium sized incorpreal creatures can go though doors, thin walls, into creatures larger then themselves and though smaller ones. They can go into a wall and then fly up to the ceiling and down the other side or travel anywhere though the walls that they can trace a path though. Since they have a perfect sense for where they are at they can do this while inside the walls.

pokedigimaniac: once the Shadows were aware of the party operating out of A I had the Shadows launch an attack on them. Since they were now in A and not E they could then travel though doors and into walls. The Shadows also attacked and 'converted' the orks and trogs that the party had not found yet.

Per the book some of the Inevitables did go down and attack the Shadows from time to time.
You could even get them as a random encounter while in the Shadow area.
rv

jim pinto said:

you've got erucsbo drawing diagrams

next he's going to have to explain AOO as it pertains to kraken's reaching tentacles

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Doesn't look like my players are going to hit L, so I'll leave that to someone else

I just received my WLD book and I'm almost done reading section A.

This will be my first official DM.

I was wondering how every body is doing the XP?

In the front of the WLD it says go by EL instead of CR.

In the DM guide it does not explain how to do XP from the EL.


Thanks,
Grimblade

grimblade said:

I just received my WLD book and I'm almost done reading section A.

This will be my first official DM.

I was wondering how every body is doing the XP?

In the front of the WLD it says go by EL instead of CR.

In the DM guide it does not explain how to do XP from the EL.


Thanks,
Grimblade

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I'm doing 25 xp per CR of the creature, trap, etc for each player (5 total). If they start increasing group size, the 125 xp will be divided between all of them. With small bonus XP for Role-playing, problem solving, etc. This has people leveling up every 3-4 adventures with my group and puts enough xp in sections A & B to do the three level jump without traps or bonus XP.

Area C is a different matter, and it was way low on total CR compared to the other two.

Good luck with WLD. Here's some other tips for it that might have been lost when 6 months of posts vanished in a crash:

Depending on your group, you may want to 'punch up' area A, as it's a bit slow in places.

You can really add to the creepy feeling of 'A' by playing up that the whole area was recently a war zone, and now you're just looking at the empty rooms of battle. Best examples are Alien, where she's walking around knowing something killed everybody but doesn't quite know where it is. The ship seems empty, but it's there, just beyond her sight. Everywhere there's evidence of something going horribly wrong, but it's not lashing out. I played up the emptiness of the first room to the point that when they heard the orcs cough in A2 one was dropped before it could respond, and the other two were at sword point before they could raise their weapons. The druid was unamused.

Also, read ahead to see which doors are open, since the map doesn't really show that. I've had lots of rooms with 'closed' doors that shouldn't have been.

Darkmantles can be brutal. Be sure you really understand the grapple and darkness rules before they face their first one. There are a few prety quick inside.

** Side note ** Goodman Games now has a darkmantle mini for all those who use them.

I'm sure I'm forgetting somethings, but it's a start.

grimblade said:

I was wondering how every body is doing the XP?

In the front of the WLD it says go by EL instead of CR.

In the DM guide it does not explain how to do XP from the EL.

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I think what is intended there is that, rather than awarding XP for every baddy based on its CR, you award XP as though it were one baddy whose CR was equal to the EL of the encounter. But I haven't actually looked into it, so for all I know that might result in higher, not lower, XP awards; one of the Jims around here might be able to shed some light on that.