LOST: The Final Season (Spoilers)

Felon said:

Claire I never got. Never understood how she can have fans. Someone once posted in this forum "I love Claire", and I remember shaking my head and furrowing my brow as I read it. She's always been a whiny, useless, selfish pig. She certainly took poor Charlie's devotion completely for granted. And now she's ticked off at Kate for spending all those years babysitting her kid while she was awol. Vintage Claire. Horrible, annoying person.

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I won't defend Claire's earlier behaviour....but her current behaviour? Getting mad at Claire? She's been living in the jungle on her own for how many years? Being hunted by Others, and, to the best of her knowledge, having been abandoned by her so called friends?

She's cracked. That's why she's not behaving rationally with Kate. That doesn't make her evil....it makes her insane. Of course, that doesn't make her behaviour any less dangerous to those around her.

I'm disappointed about Sayid. Frankly, he seemed like someone trying to seek redemption, and put his past behind him. I always thought he was one of the more interesting characters.

I missed the end of the episode wherein Smokey destroyed the temple. Did Kate and Jin *willingly* join Smokey? Or did they only join because they know that if they say "no" to Locke and try to leave, he'll just kill them?

Banshee

Banshee16 said:

I missed the end of the episode wherein Smokey destroyed the temple. Did Kate and Jin *willingly* join Smokey? Or did they only join because they know that if they say "no" to Locke and try to leave, he'll just kill them?

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Spoiler tags (though I doubt it's needed, just in case ...)

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Kate had gone to try and get Claire out. Claire (with a crazy look/laugh) said that her prison hole was the safest place. As smokey came around the corner, Kate jumped down the hole to avoid it. Smokey went elsewhere but avoided he hole since Claire was there (hence leaving Kate unaffected). Once everything went silent, Kate and Claire emerged and found everyone dead. Kate essentially followed Claire out the door, not really knowing what was going on. She seemed surprised when she saw Locke and his followers waiting at the door. So it wasn't so much an enthusiastic "I'll follow you" but rather "I am walking out, don't know what's going on, and you seem to be the only living people here so I'm following you but not necessarily 'joining' you" -- at least that is how I took it based on her nonverbal expressions.

Jin, I don't recall seeing in the temple attack. I think he was still with Locke because he is too injured to leave on his own, he can't actually go anywhere. So not a prisoner but not necessarily happy to be there either because he can sense the crazy. I know at one point he was trying to trick Claire basically to ensure that he would be kept alive. I think he is just in that mode right now (do what i can to stay alive until i figure a way out of this mess).

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anyway, that's just my recollection of it, of course, it's been a couple weeks now so i may be remembering something a little off...

Banshee16 said:

I missed the end of the episode (. . .)

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Any summary is going to be laced with interpretations (no offense, fba827). The last five episodes are currently on hulu. You might want to watch and draw your own conclusions -

Lost - Full Episodes and Clips streaming online for free - Hulu

Mark said:

Any summary is going to be laced with interpretations (no offense, fba827).

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No offense taken at all -- as I was typing it I knew I was getting in to "personal interpretation" territory mixed with "this is how I remember it though it's been several weeks"

Banshee16 said:

I won't defend Claire's earlier behaviour....but her current behaviour? Getting mad at Claire? She's been living in the jungle on her own for how many years? Being hunted by Others, and, to the best of her knowledge, having been abandoned by her so called friends?

She's cracked. That's why she's not behaving rationally with Kate. That doesn't make her evil....it makes her insane. Of course, that doesn't make her behaviour any less dangerous to those around her.

I'm disappointed about Sayid. Frankly, he seemed like someone trying to seek redemption, and put his past behind him. I always thought he was one of the more interesting characters.

I missed the end of the episode wherein Smokey destroyed the temple. Did Kate and Jin *willingly* join Smokey? Or did they only join because they know that if they say "no" to Locke and try to leave, he'll just kill them?

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The end of the episode is wordless. Kate sees Locke (remember, as far as she knew he's dead) and all the people who left the temple rallying with him. She goes off with them without saying anything. Jin, I didn't see.

Claire's current behavior wouldn't bother if it wasn't just the natural outgrowth of her previous behavior.

I think Sayid has long considered himself undeserving of redemption. I'm not sure if his true motive is really to get Nadia back, but I believe he shares my suspicion of Dogen and his crew being wolves in wolves' clothing (which is to say, viewers made them out to be sheep based on Dogen being some "wise, laconic Asian guru" archetype).

Banshee16 said:

Those are interesting points...but to be fair, and look at your Gladiator example from another angle....

What if Maximus *did* pretend to like Claudius and serve him, then go rally his forces? How many people would have died then? Claudius wouldn't have been likely to just give up, and I'm sure he would have had a legion serving his ends. How much death and destruction would have been wrought at Maximus and Claudius battled for control of the empire?

More people might have died than did when Maximus stood up for his principles. Obviously he lost his wife and son, and people who were involved in the plotting with him......but that was still probably a lower number than if civil war had erupted.

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Good analysis. I was thinking more along the lines of Maximus hitting Claudius up for some compensation for his complicity, then rallies his forces for a midnight coup. Claudius was not really portrayed as a brilliant, perceptive mastermind, but rather a self-deluding opportunist. And Maximus would be a stand-up guy and take the heat for treason while the senate took over running Rome. However, you are correct in that heroic behavior is often as destructive as virtuous behavior. Is it hubris to chuck lives away in a righteous cause? Is it better just to roll over and accept a tyrant for fear of the cost of opposing him?

I'm just thinking that ultimately, Maximus's move to unilaterally reject Claudius with a thrown gauntlet was just a damned foolish one. As you point out, his lieutenant's betrayal prevented a civil war. Of course, this is all tied into the decision to to characterize the Roman six-star super-general as some kind of simple man oblivious to politics.

As to the Losties....do we *know* that Locke and his minions are evil, and those in the temple are good? I think it's a decent assumption....but do we know? If the inhabitants of the temple were evil, and Locke killed them, does that mean he's good?

Maybe it's going to be a twist at the very end. I mean, Locke is sure not acting very nice. But what did Jacob do that was good? I mean, if Richard's been on the island for 500 years, and nobody else was told what was going on, how good is that? Seems that Jacob spent a lot of time using people.

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Exactly. Like I said, wolves in wolves' clothing. Because Jacob isn't twirling his moustache, he must be a good guy, right? He can't just be a smarmy little smooth-talker who passively manipulates people into doing bad things, right?

My guess is that without knowing what the objectives at hand are for Jacob and Smokey, we'll see a lof of viewers falling back on the tropes of beatific benevolence and selfish malevolence. I tend to assume a self-serving agenda on everyone's part, even the well-intended.

fba827 said:

No offense taken at all -- as I was typing it I knew I was getting in to "personal interpretation" territory mixed with "this is how I remember it though it's been several weeks"

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It matches mine, too. It's weird, though, how I'll speak with someone else sometimes and they catch something totally different from what I recall seeing.

A somewhat random thought --

So in the Lighthouse episode, we learn that Jacob is aware of others coming to the island and even when the lighthouse is destroyed, Jacob says to Hurley that it doesn't matter since they will still find it. And then at the end of the most recent episode is seen coming to the island.

I am asking this because I admit to have missed several of the 'middle' seasons... but what do we know (if anything) about the relationship between the person on that boat and Jacob ? I'm just wondering if that is the boat Jacob was expecting and the implications might be if Jacob and that person play for the same team (i.e. to keep Smokey at bay ...)

(yes, this question is more on heavy speculation and less on hard facts)

fba827 said:

A somewhat random thought --

So in the Lighthouse episode, we learn that Jacob is aware of others coming to the island and even when the lighthouse is destroyed, Jacob says to Hurley that it doesn't matter since they will still find it. And then at the end of the most recent episode Widmore is seen coming to the island.

I am asking this because I admit to have missed several of the 'middle' seasons... but what do we know (if anything) about the relationship between the person on that boat and Jacob ? I'm just wondering if that is the boat Jacob was expecting and the implications might be if Jacob and that person play for the same team (i.e. to keep Smokey at bay ...)

(yes, this question is more on heavy speculation and less on hard facts)

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We don't know anything about Widmore's relationship with Jacob, if they even had one. We know he was an Other, and he was eventually banished from the island, and wants to go back. We don't really know his motives for returning, either.

Interesting choice of words on the Yahoo television site -