D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

Gorgoroth, people are not trying to banish art of good looking women, they just want the women to be depicted with the same respect as is being shown their male counterparts: wearing armor that protects the vitals; in poses that do not violate anatomy/physics; a moratorium on improbably erect nipples. Etc.

This has nothing to do with prudery.

I'm puzzled by statements that a company's customer base does not have the right or responsibility to tell the company what they want, and that doing so is somehow "censorship". I enjoy maple syrup, but not in my coca-cola.

The Choice said:

I am not a hypocrite when I say I want fewer pieces of cheesecake art in D&D books. I am not a bigot out to put women in garb that covers them from the top of their heads down to their ankles. What I'm saying (and I believe others in this thread and others like this one across the internet are saying) is that in a game where you play as explorers of dark places filled with angry critters, the art should portray that reality in what those characters wear. You know, more of this: http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/

Less of this: http://w.mawebcenters.com/static/ec...6319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/s/a/savant.jpeg

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Could you explain to me what is morally wrong in your opinion about the cover of Savant & Sorcerer there? It's not to my taste (I find it ludicrously hypersexualized) but I'm struggling to find anything sexist or demeaning about it. She doesn't need to be dressed for battle or strenuous travel within the context of that image, and she's not portrayed as submissive or as a passive receptacle, if anything she is the dominant figure (the viewpoint is from beneath her, the men around her are sort of bowing to her).

Libramarian said:

Could you explain to me what is morally wrong in your opinion about the cover of Savant & Sorcerer there? It's not to my taste (I find it ludicrously hypersexualized) but I'm struggling to find anything sexist or demeaning about it. She doesn't need to be dressed for battle or strenuous travel within the context of that image, and she's not portrayed as submissive or as a passive receptacle, if anything she is the dominant figure (the viewpoint is from beneath her, the men around her are sort of bowing to her).

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Could you explain to me how your question for The Choice has absolutely anything to do with what he said? Nowhere has he talked about Morality!

Why is it that if anybody has issues with a piece of art, that it must be due to one's sense of morality?!?

All he said was that his preference was for more of something and less of something else...an opinion of personal taste and preference (cheesecake) as opposed to a moral judgement.



People need to stop bringing strawmen into this discussion. Trying to turn this discussion into an argument on morality and censorship is not scoring anyone any points.

Libramarian said:

Could you explain to me what is morally wrong in your opinion about the cover of Savant & Sorcerer there? It's not to my taste (I find it ludicrously hypersexualized) but I'm struggling to find anything sexist or demeaning about it. She doesn't need to be dressed for battle or strenuous travel within the context of that image, and she's not portrayed as submissive or as a passive receptacle, if anything she is the dominant figure (the viewpoint is from beneath her, the men around her are sort of bowing to her).

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First off, can we cut the "morally" bit? I mean really.

Second, Hawkeye it and see what it looks like.

-O

I find this entire thread sexist because it supposes that women do not like or enjoy seeing hyper-sexualized women, because only men can have libidos I guess.

Sexy people sell products. Not just to teenagers but to everyone. Sexy women appeal equally to both sexes. Men like being around sexy ladies (or imagining being around sexy ladies) and women like being sexy ladies (or imagining being sexy ladies). To deny this is to fight human nature. I also love the amount of mad and butthurt whiteknighting tumblrjustice this 55 page train wreck contains. Please keep it up.

Libramarian said:

Could you explain to me what is morally wrong in your opinion about the cover of Savant & Sorcerer there? It's not to my taste (I find it ludicrously hypersexualized) but I'm struggling to find anything sexist or demeaning about it. She doesn't need to be dressed for battle or strenuous travel within the context of that image, and she's not portrayed as submissive or as a passive receptacle, if anything she is the dominant figure (the viewpoint is from beneath her, the men around her are sort of bowing to her).

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For me, it's less about morality (in a narrow sense, at least) and more about politics, and the conception of the situation that the illustrator is displaying.

Why does the illustrator (or the art director who called for the illustration, or whomever else is responsbile for the production) see this situation - be it an adventurer climbing down a cliff (cover of DMG2) or a sorcererss receiving adoration from her underlings (the Exalted cover linked to) - as a sexual one? In the latter case, why are they unable to conceive of a sorceress who dominates her underlings through some means other than her sexuality?

Back in the 30s when REH was writing and selling Conan stories the answers to these sorts of questions were fairly clear - Conan stories were, among other things, sold as soft porn, with covers on the magazines that had erotic appeal. But things have changed in the intervening 80 years - the market is different, the audience for fantasy is different, the avenues for soft porn are different. There's no good reason for fantasy art to be stuck in the same place, of treating the presence of women in the fiction as an opportunity for some low-level sexual gratification.

n00bdragon said:

I find this entire thread sexist because it supposes that women do not like or enjoy seeing hyper-sexualized women, because only men can have libidos I guess.

Sexy people sell products. Not just to teenagers but to everyone. Sexy women appeal equally to both sexes. Men like being around sexy ladies (or imagining being around sexy ladies) and women like being sexy ladies (or imagining being sexy ladies). To deny this is to fight human nature. I also love the amount of mad and butthurt whiteknighting tumblrjustice this 55 page train wreck contains. Please keep it up.

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BWAHAHAH

Oh crap, you're serious. 4chan must miss you.

Okay, let's see if we can't square this circle. Let's imagine that every time you turn on the TV, you see pictures of lithe, hairless men wearing loincloths. These men don't seem to do anything but whine and brood, and they're always falling in love with the women and nine times out of ten, they end up killing themselves in a fit of anger.

Now imagine every single story is the same story. Every time you open a book, every single game, every damn movie. Now imagine you have the audacity to mention that you're sick of this, that men can be more than pointless arm candy. And some nincompoop online tells you to stop whining, it's just human nature.

In summary:

JonWake said:

BWAHAHAH

Oh crap, you're serious. 4chan must miss you.

Okay, let's see if we can't square this circle. Let's imagine that every time you turn on the TV, you see pictures of lithe, hairless men wearing loincloths. These men don't seem to do anything but whine and brood, and they're always falling in love with the women and nine times out of ten, they end up killing themselves in a fit of anger.

Now imagine every single story is the same story. Every time you open a book, every single game, every damn movie. Now imagine you have the audacity to mention that you're sick of this, that men can be more than pointless arm candy. And some nincompoop online tells you to stop whining, it's just human nature.

In summary:

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Nice exaggeration...but really it's not that extreme, not anymore. And there has been a significant increase in males filling those roles too.

n00bdragon said:

I find this entire thread sexist because it supposes that women do not like or enjoy seeing hyper-sexualized women, because only men can have libidos I guess.

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Wat. Srsly. Are you saying that women are bisexual, but men aren't?

Sexy women appeal equally to both sexes. Men like being around sexy ladies (or imagining being around sexy ladies) and women like being sexy ladies (or imagining being sexy ladies). To deny this is to fight human nature.

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I don't mind if you're bisexual, but I am not. I want to see SEXY MEN. I have less than zero interest in seeing sexy ladies. You seem to be saying that human nature is to be bisexual, and while that would be abstractly cool if that were true, it simply isn't.

And no, I do not want to imagine being a character who is stupid. It is stupid to prioritize looking hot over your survival in dangerous situations, and I consider power and competence to be a hell of a lot sexier than stupidity.