Why would a dragon NOT take Antimagic field?

The spell description for AMF says that the field surrounds you and moves with you. I'd rule that it's the dragon's space, and 10 feet around the dragon in every direction.

Also, I believe the Orb spells specifically do work against creatures or objects within an anti-magic field, like the psionic power crystal shard. They're instantaneous conjurations and the item created is outside the AMF.

Dark Dragon said:

This looks nice, and I definitively would rule that the Force Cage (barred version) resists an AMF. The spell description says that the cage could be made of walls of force, so why should the barred cage be a weaker version of the same spell? It is an expensive spell, and the caster should get something worth the cost.

I rule that the AMF is centered inside the creature. That's why great wyrms need to cast AMF widened to fit inside.

The orb thing is indeed cheesy, and it was ruled in another group that it has a duration. But that is only a side note. Meteor Swarm would not work in an AMF: it allows SR, and is an evocation spell.



I strongly hope that the party has Resist Fire up and running! They are sitting literally on an erupting volcano. And three players (including me as a DM) have a background as geologists.

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Why would a dragon have learned the spell in the first place if its centered inside itself and it wouldn't be able to cast that level of a spell until it's Very Old (it's a level 6 sorcerer spell, so a Red Dragon would "learn" it when it hits the Very Old age category and is Gargantuan in size). Not very useful if the spell is inside the dragon only, no?

JamesonCourage said:

In-game, Sorcerers don't choose their spells, and I assume the same would go for dragons.

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I have never heard of this style of play before, and I don't believe it is strictly correct. The rules specify that sorcerers can choose "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study". If you can study a spell to learn it, clearly the in-game character has a choice in the matter. And since dragons are treated exactly the same as sorcerers, they would also get a choice.

JamesonCourage said:

Just to give some context on why dragons may not do this (at least according to the Monster Manual):

The dragon may not want to spend a round or two grappling after using the Snatch feat, just by preference.

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Agreed, but it is feasible option nevertheless, because it takes out most foes (maybe except the monk), stopping them causing more trouble. Snatch is a standard dragon feat, and it makes the dragon an even more dangerous foe, especially if the party has little time to prepare for combat. What first: Resist Energy? Freedom of Movement? Dimension Door? Fly? Resilient Sphere? Wall of Force? Forcecage?

JamesonCourage said:

So, we know that dragons want things, especially coins and magic items, and this goes double for red dragons. Does this red dragon know that the party is adventurers with incredible amounts of wealth? If so, it'll likely avoid obliterating them and their belongings (by dragging them down into lava). Does it not know, and just think they're random traveling humans? Then there's really no reason to obliterate them rather than, say, just eat them (as a tasty meal). Remember, red dragons are over-confident, and they might get themselves into trouble.

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Aside from game fun, I consider this as a major reason why the dragon would not dump the PCs in lava. The dragon knows from the cultists that the group possesses some very valuable magic items. Neither the dragon nor the cultists know about the group's artefact, however. The evil fraction is well aware that the PCs are a dangerous group with a good array of combat options and arcane powers that exceed the cultists' and the dragon's options; this prevents the dragon from being overconfident. He may be arrogant, but he is not stupid to ignore the fact that this battle is going against guys that have shown their prowess and stepped on the Cult's toes. The evil guys also know that they have a good opportunity to catch the party by surprise, and the red dragon is the key to even the odds (so they hope).

However, the dragon will not fight to death. If the battle is going poorly for whatever reason, he will abandon the cultists to let them fight for themselves. The necromancer cultist will teleport away as soon as the dragon retreats (or if his own life is in danger), and report to his master about the battle.

JamesonCourage said:

In-game, Sorcerers don't choose their spells, and I assume the same would go for dragons. It's possible that it just never gained the Antimagic Field spell, and thus can't cast it, as you're proposing here. I suppose it could have some scrolls in its hoard, though, which it could always Teleport to and grab, if necessary.

Anyways, just some food for thought, more from the story-side than "lead hat and line of effect" side. Hope some of it helps someone reading it. As always, play what you like

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Many thanks for your thoughts! True, I as the DM could always leave AMF out, and certainly not all dragons would/should have access to AMF. But my question still remains: why would I as a DM not give the dragon AMF, aside for game fun reasons?

Without AMF, the dragon would be less dangerous I assume; and with AMF, one PC is likely dead. Killing a PC because the DM can do so is poor DMing, IMO.

Using a bigger older dragon is an option, but I remember well a fight when the PCs battled a great wyrm white dragon in a nightly combat. The creature was overconfident and did its best to dish out damage, but it was forced to melee ground combat quickly by the wizard's Earthbind spell (movement reduced to 150 ft even on a successful save, but that dragon had bad luck and rolled a 1, so its fly speed was 0). From then on, the wizard and the cleric simply countered all dispel and exit spells of the dragon, while her buddies and the warmage did the damage (and they did a lot in one round). After 3 rounds of melee fight, the dragon surrendered. It did some damage to the PCs, but the party was not threatened seriously (my impression).

NewJeffCT said:

Why would a dragon have learned the spell in the first place if its centered inside itself and it wouldn't be able to cast that level of a spell until it's Very Old (it's a level 6 sorcerer spell, so a Red Dragon would "learn" it when it hits the Very Old age category and is Gargantuan in size). Not very useful if the spell is inside the dragon only, no?

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Hrmm, this is a good point. I get the impression that AMF was not designed for creatures bigger than size M . Guess I've to re-evaluate my AMF ruling.

JamesonCourage said:

So, we know that dragons want things, especially coins and magic items, and this goes double for red dragons. Does this red dragon know that the party is adventurers with incredible amounts of wealth? If so, it'll likely avoid obliterating them and their belongings (by dragging them down into lava). Does it not know, and just think they're random traveling humans? Then there's really no reason to obliterate them rather than, say, just eat them (as a tasty meal). Remember, red dragons are over-confident, and they might get themselves into trouble.

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Maybe this is out of context for D&D, but an ancient red did not get ancient by being dumb. A great book on why dragons collect $ is The Dragons of the Cuyahoga. Dragons know they are the top of the food chain. They also tend to be solitary and will not be getting help from other dragons to save them. They collect $ to control the unwashed masses (humans and such) - they know in large numbers they can cause a problem. (heck, other dragons may be behind getting the unwashed masses to attack that particular dragon)

All that $ gets invested in keeping the dragon numero uno. You go talk to the Sage about the that is reknown for his knowledge of Brixarix the Terrible. Do you know why his is reknown for this knowledge? Cuz he is employed by Brixarix the Terrible. The PCs get some plausible information. The Dragon knows who is coming after him and what tactics (as planted by the Sage) that will be used. The primo gear that the PCs will stock up on will be bought at places that are owned by the dragon (getting some loot ahead of time and guess what, some of those items won't work as advertised). There will be informants all along the way - an ancient red dragon should have the resources to put the NSA to shame. A party of PCs should not get within 100 miles of where the dragon REALLY is without some hard core due diligence. Its should be a campaign in its own right.

Otherwise, what is the justification for dragons getting $? Are they just dumb birds that like the shiney? To me, the only time dragons actually horde this is in their youth. Young dragons horde the money so they can eventually set up this ecosystem to survive to become ancient dragons.

Ancient dragons should never ever fight fair. If the GM can think of it, the dragon should have something 10 times as nasty. Everyone has taken their shot at the Ancient Dragon - there should be nothing most players come up with that the dragon should not have some counter to - especially if its "hey, we're going after Brixarix the Terrible cuz he is level appropriate CR/XP now" - that party should be dead within 10 minutes after saying that, and anyone every remotely related to them should be slaughtered by the dragons network as well. Its like declaring you are going after a Russian crime syndicate - good luck with that. Players should be terrified of going up against a named dragon - and even more terrified is the named dragon has taken notice of them!

But that's just my opinion how dragons should be run.

Dark Dragon said:

Hrmm, this is a good point. I get the impression that AMF was not designed for creatures bigger than size M . Guess I've to re-evaluate my AMF ruling.

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What is in the PHB was designed for M creatures. How many game worlds base their magic on dragons in some way? Many times sorcerers are described as have dragon blood as the source for their powers. One should never limit oneself to the PHB confines for creatures. If the players whine, tell them they can fight goblins instead (and they would probably fall for the bree-yark trick and whine about that, too)

Deset Gled said:

I have never heard of this style of play before

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WHAT?! That's extremely odd, to me. But hey, it's not like I'm trying to force my style on you or the OP.

Dark Dragon said:

Agreed, but it is feasible option nevertheless, because it takes out most foes (maybe except the monk), stopping them causing more trouble. Snatch is a standard dragon feat, and it makes the dragon an even more dangerous foe, especially if the party has little time to prepare for combat. What first: Resist Energy? Freedom of Movement? Dimension Door? Fly? Resilient Sphere? Wall of Force? Forcecage?

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I support the use of the Snatch feat, I was just talking about the tactic of holding someone under the lava for a couple of rounds (prolonged grappling). Mind you, I think a red dragon might do it if he's feeling desperate, but I wouldn't imagine him starting the fight off like that unless he knows how dangerous the party is already.

Dark Dragon said:

However, the dragon will not fight to death. If the battle is going poorly for whatever reason, he will abandon the cultists to let them fight for themselves. The necromancer cultist will teleport away as soon as the dragon retreats (or if his own life is in danger), and report to his master about the battle.

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This all sounds reasonable to me

Dark Dragon said:

Many thanks for your thoughts! True, I as the DM could always leave AMF out, and certainly not all dragons would/should have access to AMF. But my question still remains: why would I as a DM not give the dragon AMF, aside for game fun reasons?

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Like I said, maybe because the dragon doesn't have it. Then again, maybe it does. I like to theme spells when picking things for Sorcerer-style characters, so if it fits (it also has Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, etc)., I'd take it. If not, then I'd pass.

But, that's my style with 3.X-type games. In 4e, I'd definitely pick it based on how fun it sounds when it came to the fight. I don't think either way of choosing is inherently bad.

Cadence said:

This is a great example of why I really don't like DMing high level games...

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It was easier for me to learn another game system. Deciding on fair adjudication and application with casters spells was too much mental grief. From low end stuff like an unhittable until dispelled dragon with both Shield and Mage Armor to the high end example of balancing an NPC's desperation Vs XP cost of the "Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting." option of Miracle. Just too many things like these made me say screw it.

And here...

AMF's liabilities are while invisible, the field does not cover enough of the dragon to be solid protection for huge or larger dragons. As long as the party is magiced up, casters will be able to see the field with a 5' step thanks to various ways to see invis. The just target the part of the dragon space outside the 10' radius of the AMF.

Scorpio616 said:

It was easier for me to learn another game system. Deciding on fair adjudication and application with casters spells was too much mental grief. From low end stuff like an unhittable until dispelled dragon with both Shield and Mage Armor to the high end example of balancing an NPC's desperation Vs XP cost of the "Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting." option of Miracle. Just too many things like these made me say screw it.

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High level games in 3.5E and Pathfinder can be a real bear with all the buffing & debuffing going on - especially if both sides have several casters.

But, one of the more memorable moments in the 3.5E game I ran was when the party cleric decided to burn her 5,000XP to get her fallen comrade Resurrected via Miracle after he had been struck down via Implosion. (Weirdly, he was a dwarf fighter , so had a great Fort save, but rolled a "1" and missed it after making some tough rolls on Will and Reflex saves earlier in the combat) The group had made plenty of use of Revivify throughout the campaign, but I don't think they had really used Raise Dead or Resurrection before that.

One problem people have with running high level 3.5E games is that they still try to run "combat as sport" where they pit a "team" of monsters against the PCs and expect a "fair" battle between them without any outside influence just like in a sporting event.
But high level 3.5E is much more suitable for "combat as war" were each team, instead on meeting on a neutral ground for fair combat, tries to stack the fight in their favor before it even starts so that the combat itself is just a formality.

And when you run the monsters as "combat as sport" team while the players play "combat as war" then it is no wonder that they will easily mop the floor with everything you throw at them.