Why would a dragon NOT take Antimagic field?

[Dark Dragon]

Round 1: Haste, AMF, charge casters
Round 2: Grab/Snatch caster, fly to volcano
Round 3: Dive into lava
Round 4: Dive half a round, release caster, go up again
Round 5: Go to 2.

This looks in parts quite similar to my first idea, and would result in a TPK, more or less. AMF + dragon is a nasty combination. Haste would be suppressed in the AMF.

Lava does 20d6 fire damage, but the caster could survive for about 2 or 3 rounds (she has some 150 hp), sufficient time to try and cast Dimension Door and/or Protection from Fire. Ok, for this, she needs to make a Concentration check against ongoing damage with a DC close to 50... very difficult but possible to make (she maxed it out and has a good CON).

Immersing a creature in lava is difficult due to its relatively high density (unless the lava is natrocarbonatite ). Still, I'd treat a creature being stuck in liquid lava as being entangled (no save).

One point NOT to use a cozy lava bath is that the equipment wil melt away as well, and the dragon would not gain any items.


My intention is not kill the party, but to put up a challenge that fits the scenario and shows the PCs that their life is in serious danger, despite of facing a "minor" foe... That is why I hesitate to use AMF in the first instance.

Maybe the dragon casts it in round 2 or 3 (after pelting the party with other spells), this should alert the PCs that they are in serious trouble. The players know that the big dragons often use the fly-by and snatch attack routine, and if that is combined with AMF...

EDIT: Wow, many replies while I was typing...

 

[Greenfield]

Just re-read the AMF description, and Acid Orb. I can see the gist of your argument.

Question: Could a caster prepare a vial and cast Acid Orb into it, and then keep the acid until needed?

If you, as a DM, would rule that they could, then using Acid Orb as you describe, would be a consistent ruling. If you would rule against, then I'd have to say you can't use the spell to injure something in an AMF.

 

[Dandu]

Lava does 20d6 fire damage, but the caster could survive for about 2 or 3 rounds (she has some 150 hp), sufficient time to try and cast Dimension Door and/or Protection from Fire. Ok, for this, she needs to make a Concentration check against ongoing damage with a DC close to 50... very difficult but possible to make (she maxed it out and has a good CON).

If you go up against a firebreathing dragon without at least Resist Energy, you deserve to die.

Question: Could a caster prepare a vial and cast Acid Orb into it, and then keep the acid until needed?

If you, as a DM, would rule that they could, then using Acid Orb as you describe, would be a consistent ruling. If you would rule against, then I'd have to say you can't use the spell to injure something in an AMF.

And what about Acid Splash?

One interesting question Orbs bring up is how you even have an orb of Cold or Force, since those are not physical things that ever exist. Then again, neither do giant, flying, firebreathing lizards.

 

[Derren]

Lava does 20d6 fire damage, but the caster could survive for about 2 or 3 rounds (she has some 150 hp), sufficient time to try and cast Dimension Door and/or Protection from Fire. Ok, for this, she needs to make a Concentration check against ongoing damage with a DC close to 50... very difficult but possible to make (she maxed it out and has a good CON).

Immersing a creature in lava is difficult due to its relatively high density (unless the lava is natrocarbonatite ). Still, I'd treat a creature being stuck in liquid lava as being entangled (no save).

DD, Protection from fire only works when the dragon, and with him the AMF, leaves. But if he stays a round its full fire damage without protection or magical escapes. And I am pretty sure you that when the dragon is actively pressing the victim into the lava it would count as immersed.

My intention is not kill the party, but to put up a challenge that fits the scenario and shows the PCs that their life is in serious danger, despite of facing a "minor" foe... That is why I hesitate to use AMF in the first instance.

Maybe the dragon casts it in round 2 or 3 (after pelting the party with other spells), this should alert the PCs that they are in serious trouble. The players know that the big dragons often use the fly-by and snatch attack routine, and if that is combined with AMF...

Imo a bad idea.
When the enemies the PCs are fighting want to kill them they should be played that way instead of deciding to hold back even before the fight has started. Otherwise you can remove all this combat system and HP and just let the PCs hit the enemies for a while before you decide that they are dead. Why spend so much time and effort on something that is a forgone conclusion?

 

[Dark Dragon]

Emanation effects typically have to be centered at a grid junction. The area is measured from there.

AMF is one of the odd ones in that it specifies that it's centered on a creature.

One could rule that it automatically includes the creature, plus 10 feet, and that wouldn't be unreasonable. It's not, however, the way such spells normally work according to RAW. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the SRD an emanation radiates from the "point of origin", which taken literally means a single point, not a creature or area.)

Someone suggested conjuration spells centering outside the AMF as a way to hurt the dragon. Orb spells and Meteor Swarm were mentioned.

By the rules, I don't see how that works. Area effects that overlap with an AMF don't include the AMF in their area, per RAW.

Orb spells have to make contact with the target, and they blink out as soon as they enter the AMF, fully suppressed by the field.

You might drop a Wall of Iron on the caster, since that spell duration is instantaneous (i.e. the wall is the result of magic, rather than being magic in and of itself). But any kind of conjured energy type is going to fail, per RAW.

So yeah, a dragon with an AMF is a fearsome thing. He loses his breath weapon and is reduced to pure melee, but since he's pretty good at pure melee, particularly against opponents whose 45+ ACs depend on magic effects, it's very much a winning tactic.

My own answer would be to cast a 20x20 Force Cage around myself (presuming that the DM rules that it, like Force Wall isn't affected by AMF), and then missile away through the openings in the Cage. Alchemical attacks are also good. Any side the Dragon comes to, I can be out of his AMF emanation, so I still get all of my magical bonuses to my weapon's "to hit", even if the arrows lose the magical damage bonus when they enter the AMF.

Oh, and remember to poison the arrows. Yeah, he's got a Dragon's Saves, but anyone can roll a 1, given enough opportunities.

This looks nice, and I definitively would rule that the Force Cage (barred version) resists an AMF. The spell description says that the cage could be made of walls of force, so why should the barred cage be a weaker version of the same spell? It is an expensive spell, and the caster should get something worth the cost.

I rule that the AMF is centered inside the creature. That's why great wyrms need to cast AMF widened to fit inside.

The orb thing is indeed cheesy, and it was ruled in another group that it has a duration. But that is only a side note. Meteor Swarm would not work in an AMF: it allows SR, and is an evocation spell.

If you go up against a firebreathing dragon without at least Resist Energy, you deserve to die.

I strongly hope that the party has Resist Fire up and running! They are sitting literally on an erupting volcano. And three players (including me as a DM) have a background as geologists.

 

[Dark Dragon]

DD, Protection from fire only works when the dragon, and with him the AMF, leaves. But if he stays a round its full fire damage without protection or magical escapes. And I am pretty sure you that when the dragon is actively pressing the victim into the lava it would count as immersed.

True, if a ton of a dragon lands on lava, the poor guy in the dragon's grasp will take a good hot bath...

Imo a bad idea.
When the enemies the PCs are fighting want to kill them they should be played that way instead of deciding to hold back even before the fight has started. Otherwise you can remove all this combat system and HP and just let the PCs hit the enemies for a while before you decide that they are dead. Why spend so much time and effort on something that is a forgone conclusion?

Agreed, and if the AMF'ed dragon attack is executed properly, it will be severe blow to the party. Once one of the two casters (the Enlightened Fist or the Cleric) capable of saving the party (by casting Dimension Door, Word of Recall, Wind Walk) was taken away by the dragon, the remaining party should find an exit clue quickly. Still, one PC would be dead without a reasonable chance to survive.
The point is: this is not really funny, unless there is some sort of heroic action tied to it. And it may happen that the other players are just frustrated and accept a TPK.

If the party is able to retreat, they know that they have now encountered a very dangerous foe, they have learned a bit of this foe's tactical approaches, and should tread carefully when facing this foe again.

Again, I know that the AMF plan is mean, but a reasonable option (and one player may wonder if/why I would not use it). That's why I'm thinking of other options to keep this encounter interesting. It is some sort of a climax in the story arc. And it should show that older dragons are not another big flying monster giving XPs.

 

[MarkB]

If the dragon casts AMF with his standard action and moves next to the sorcerer, the AMF will suppress the Shrink Item on the sorcerer's hat, which will result in it turning into a giant lead cone that covers him.

This then allows the sorcerer to apparate somewhere else and begin casting spells.

If we're going to go with the crazy-prepared sorcerer, how about taking it up a couple of notches? Build that hat out of Adamantium, and adorn it with some decorative monster-shaped hat-pins that are actually high-CR monsters transformed via Polymorph Any Object (I'm thinking templated and/or HD-advanced Purple Worms and the like).

That way, the dragon has some friends to play with while the sorcerer redeploys.

 

[Dark Dragon]

If we're going to go with the crazy-prepared sorcerer, how about taking it up a couple of notches? Build that hat out of Adamantium, and adorn it with some decorative monster-shaped hat-pins that are actually high-CR monsters transformed via Polymorph Any Object (I'm thinking templated and/or HD-advanced Purple Worms and the like).

That way, the dragon has some friends to play with while the sorcerer redeploys.

Crazy idea! Unfortunately, the party has not the time to set it up in detail... But then... Call or Gate in a decent monster, PaO it, create a Wall of Stone (in pointy hat shape), PaO it into adamantine, shrink it, attach the PaO'ed monster on the hat. Geez... all those spells are available in the party. But I guess, it is to far off for the players

 

[JamesonCourage]

Round 1: Haste, AMF, charge casters
Round 2: Grab/Snatch caster, fly to volcano
Round 3: Dive into lava
Round 5: Go to 2.

This looks in parts quite similar to my first idea, and would result in a TPK, more or less.

Just to give some context on why dragons may not do this (at least according to the Monster Manual):

Grappling: Dragons do not favor grapple attacks, though their crush attack (and Snatch feat, if they know it) use normal grappling rules.

The dragon may not want to spend a round or two grappling after using the Snatch feat, just by preference.

Although goals and ideals vary among varieties, all dragons are covetous. They like to hoard wealth, collecting mounds of coins and gathering as many gems, jewels, and magic items as possible.

[SNIP]

Red dragons are the most covetous of all dragons, forever seeking to increase their treasure hoards. They are exceptionally vain, which is reflected in their proud bearing and disdainful expression.

[SNIP]

Because red dragons are so confident, they seldom pause to appraise an adversary. On spotting a target, they make a snap decision whether to attack, using one of many strategies worked out ahead of time. A red dragons lands to attack small, weak creatures with its claws and bite rather than obliterating them with its breath weapon, so as not to destroy any treasure they might be carrying.

So, we know that dragons want things, especially coins and magic items, and this goes double for red dragons. Does this red dragon know that the party is adventurers with incredible amounts of wealth? If so, it'll likely avoid obliterating them and their belongings (by dragging them down into lava). Does it not know, and just think they're random traveling humans? Then there's really no reason to obliterate them rather than, say, just eat them (as a tasty meal). Remember, red dragons are over-confident, and they might get themselves into trouble.

Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or the cleric domain lists as arcane spells.

In-game, Sorcerers don't choose their spells, and I assume the same would go for dragons. It's possible that it just never gained the Antimagic Field spell, and thus can't cast it, as you're proposing here. I suppose it could have some scrolls in its hoard, though, which it could always Teleport to and grab, if necessary.

Anyways, just some food for thought, more from the story-side than "lead hat and line of effect" side. Hope some of it helps someone reading it. As always, play what you like

 

[NuSair]

This looks nice, and I definitively would rule that the Force Cage (barred version) resists an AMF. The spell description says that the cage could be made of walls of force, so why should the barred cage be a weaker version of the same spell? It is an expensive spell, and the caster should get something worth the cost.

The answer for that is the slots themselves. I forget off the top of my head where I read this- but a 1 foot square hole in a wall (or whatever is impeding the AMF) will allow it to continue past. So, if it was a few small arrow slits....

I rule that the AMF is centered inside the creature. That's why great wyrms need to cast AMF widened to fit inside.

I have used two different version of AMF with dragons. Once was the point it was cast was either the dragons tip of his wing or claw and he used it like a shield (the players talked about that for years). The other was why would a Dragon be bothered with such low magic to make a substandard effect? So, I made a dragon magic version of AMF that created an area big enough to engulf the entire dragon.

I strongly hope that the party has Resist Fire up and running! They are sitting literally on an erupting volcano. And three players (including me as a DM) have a background as geologists.

Heh, the current party I am running always keeps up protection from Fire and Lightning at least on the spell casters. The Rogue and Monk are left to fend on their own, but with their reflex saving throws, it doesn't often come in to play.