D&D 5E What is Over-Powered?

Perhaps compared to the latest editions and Pathfinder, 5th Edition does indeed have a more oldschool feel, but it is a far cry from what was promised by Wizards of the Coast, and in my opinion, it falls flat on its face in so far as providing an oldschool feel.

Would you be willing to point out where you read about this? Having followed the whole playtest, I found that there were a lot of places where I felt something was "promised" but it ended up being weasel words instead.

Since so much of the oldschool feel came from the oldschool mechanics, 5th Edition can't hope to have it unless it undergoes a revision. An impossible task, maybe, but given how much the designers put into it, they may yet prove up to the task.

I'm of a similar mind as Diamabel, Cernor, and Remathilis here: it sounds an awful lot like what you really want is "1st Edition, Republished." That may not be actually what you're looking for, but things like this don't communicate whatever you actually want particularly well.
 

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What were you expecting 5e to be like? That is, what do you think WotC promised, and how did you get that impression? I'm asking because I only got into D&D a couple of months before 5e released, so I didn't follow the news during the playtest at all.

What old-school mechanics are you looking to reproduce? Save-or-die effects have been replaced with save-or-save-or-die, which is IMO good for avoiding anticlimactic deaths at higher levels (like a basilisk petrifying the party cleric who's the only one who can reverse petrification). If you want them, simply take away the second save, and BOOM! Save-or-die is back.
If it's about having an army of hirelings and followers (something I've been led to believe was mandatory back in O/AD&D), you can still do that in 5e, but it isn't the default anymore. Maybe after 40 years, they've learned that people prefer to be Big Damn Heroes who act as a (mostly) self-sufficient band.

It was at the very beginning, when they announced they were making 5th Edition. They said we'd be able to play a character from any edition at the same table where other players have characters from different editions. This was discussed at wizards.com, and we concluded that Wizards of the Coast accidentally left that impression with the way they worded the article. So maybe they didn't actually intend to do that. They said it would possible with the tools they would give the DM, but they didn't give any specifics. I imagined they were making the new edition "all-inclusive", and I expected huge rulebooks. I wanted to learn how to run the game for 4e players, alongside 3e players, etc.

I am over the disappointment, but I now think it would mean more to me to make my own game.
 

Would you be willing to point out where you read about this? Having followed the whole playtest, I found that there were a lot of places where I felt something was "promised" but it ended up being weasel words instead.



I'm of a similar mind as Diamabel, Cernor, and Remathilis here: it sounds an awful lot like what you really want is "1st Edition, Republished." That may not be actually what you're looking for, but things like this don't communicate whatever you actually want particularly well.

It doesn't matter anymore. I shall always play AD&D and BECMI, and think of them.
 

It doesn't matter anymore. I shall always play AD&D and BECMI, and think of them.

Hey, follow your muse. 5e isn't AD&D. Its not BECMI. Its inspired by the past, but its not AD&D with upwards AC.

Go have fun. United We Roll.

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http://teespring.com/unitedweroll?pr=2L9FCITVQ4#pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front
 

SirAntoine:
Ok, I will try be swift in my answer. I liked a LOT AD&D (second ed). I have been a DM myself for quite a long time (15 years), and I liked a lot over 3º, 3.5 and 4th edition which, all because I didn't like the massive overpower of certain characters/builds. So, until the release of 5ed, I was playing three AD&D campaings. All of this doesn't matter a bit. The whole point in which you are constructing your argument is false. Or it's only a subjective matter, and a thing of personal taste, or it isn't. You are between this two points, switching for convenience. This is just "bad milk", like we said in Argentina when someone has bad intentions, OR just plain stupidity. If your posts were only guided by the "like factor" I wouldn't allow myself to even argue. But they're not: you are calling back to the "true D&D". This is not, by history, AD&D, that is a revamp of OD&D (the original!). Lets get this straight:
1) You call "balanced" a system that has proven to be broken several times. Even by core. Look at the druid or the wizard; the wizard at least had slower XP progression. But the druid? Not a bit. Faster than most classes, it was a full caster with animal form (I remember the butterfly-elephant combo: fly over a fiend as a tiny bird, polymorph in a huge beast: instant death for most characters); and they had not a specially demanding requirements. Sure, you have to be a (relatively) high level character, but with the xp progression, a druid can poly between this forms at the same time that a wizard had a fireball. But yet, the wizard could take over a KINGDOM at level 1 (remember Charm Person? it used to last MONTHS for sub-par to average Intelligence characters: a little patience and ingenuity and you could easily rise an army, only by influence trading: you charm a lieutenant, and their men obey you; then you could charm a minister, and so on).

2) All things considered, an army isn't even a big deal to a wizard/druid/cleric/paladin. But a specialized warrior could also charge and destroy orcs at level 6-8 as if they were made from grass. The "balance" is not even a question here. There is no such thing as an army against a party that could plausibly had a chance: the PCs were just better than anything. It is the same mistake that they made too in 3rd 3.5, and 4ed: the players were just too big for anyone else. My brother played a Necromancer that overpowered a full squadron of fighters and paladins of higher level than him with just two spells: Lightning bolt and Ghoul's touch. And the list is bigger than that: just consider Fireball (3rd level, a wizard of medium level could wipe out almost anything), or Fire Rain (ok, a little higher level). Or almost any spell that deals massive damage in a wide AoE: the armies will just fall at the feeto of medium-level players. In 5ed, such nonsense is dealed with: concentration, visible target, shield bonuses, more hp for the foes...: all magic is well balanced and overly underpowered in this edition. Yes, there are classes that are a lot stronger tha before (fighter, for example), but so are the enemies. The 5ed wizard is clearly a lot less powerful than a 2ed one (at least after level 2-3). A lot more "realistic" in your own terms.

3) There is nothing, i repeat, NOTHING realistic in AD&D. There are wizards, elves, miracle workers AKA clerics, orcs, gods, demons, and bizarre monsters in it. Not even the armors were realistic: a chainmail is by no means a "light" armor that a bard or a rogue could use. It's heavier than S.H.I.T: over 30 kg the Hauberk alone. It was the very definition of heavy armor during most Middle Ages. And the weapons... three attacks with a bow for a single swing of a blade? This is just plain ridiculous realisticly speaking. In the time that an archer charges the arrow and shoot, I give him three blows with my sword. It's just a fact: an english archer could fire 8-10 by minute, and a swordsman can attack over sixty times in that time, and a knife man even more. But you don't even mention the darts... The word that defines a fictional world is NEVER realistic. In Spanish we differentiate between "realistic" (tied to reality) and "verosímil" (similar to reality, plausible, credible in a context). I did not find a speciific word to relate to, but vraisemblance is akin to this.

5ed empowered the numbers over the sheer power of one individual. A group of orcs, well used, can be a worthy challenge over a high level party. They can even defeat them (although with heavy losses on their side) So... no. No chance that it's unbalanced or overpowered compared with AD&D.

If any, is clearer, more realistic, and balanced than previous editions. Yes, the classes have now more options. Yes, the bonuses are more frequent than in the "old days": but there are more options, more bonuses for every class in the game, including NPCs and monsters. You don't like the hp recovery? Go to the GDM: there are several options to make it harder. I use them, and the play is overall well tuned, fun, and more verosimile than any previous edition.
 
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I really think that, overall, 5ed is a better game than AD&D. But what you like is your concern. A DM can make miracles with rock-paper-scissors. (sorry for the crappy english)
 

SirAntoine:
Ok, I will try be swift in my answer. I liked a LOT AD&D (second ed). I have been a DM myself for quite long time (15 years), and I liked a lot over 3º, 3.5 and 4th edition which, that because the massive overpower of certain characters I didn't like. Until the release of 5ed, I was playing three AD&D campaings. All of this doesn't matter a bit. The whole point in which you are constructing your argument is false. Or it's only a subjective matter, and a thing of personal taste, or it isn't. You are between this two points, switching for convenience. This is just bad taste, OR just plain stupidity. If it's only the "like factor" i wouldn't allow myself to even argue. But it's not: you are calling to the "true D&D" that is not, by history, AD&D, that is a revamp of OD&D (the original!). Lets get this straight:
1) You call "balanced" a system that has proven to be broken several times. Even by core. Look at the druid or the wizard; the wizard at least had slower XP progression. But the druid? Not a bit. Faster than most classes, it was a full caster with animal form (I remember the butterfly-elephant combo: fly over a fiend as a tiny bird, polymorph in a huge beast: instant death for most characters); and they had not a specially demanding requirements. Sure, you have to be a (relatively) high level character, but with the xp progression, a druid can poly between this forms at the same time that a wizard had a fireball. But yet, the wizard could take over a KINGDOM at level 1 (remember Charm Person? it lasted MONTHS for medium to average Inteligence: a little patience and ingenuity and you could easily rise an army, only by influence trading: you charm an lieutenant, and their men obey you; then you could charm a minister, and so on).

2) All things considered, an army isn't even a big deal to a wizard/druid/cleric/paladin. But a specialized warrior could also warp and destroy orcs at level 6-8 like if they were made from grass. The "balance" is not even a question here. There is no such thing as an army against a party that could plausibly go good: the PCs were just better than anything. Is the same mistake that made too 3rd 3.5, and 4ed: the players were just too big for anyone else. My brother played a magician that overpowered a full squadron of fighters and paladins of higher level with just two spells: Lightning bolt and Ghoul's touch. Just consider Fireball (3rd level, a wizard of medium level could wipe out almost anything). Or Fire Rain (ok, a little higher level). Or almost any spell that deals massive damage in a wide AoE, and the armies will just fall before the medium level players. In 5ed, such nonsense is dealed with: concentration, visible target, shield bonuses, more hp for the foes... all magic is well balanced and overly underpowered in his edition. Yes, there are classes that are a lot stronger (fighter, for example), but so are the enemies. The 5ed wizard is clearly a lot less powerful than a 2ed one (at least after level 2-3). A lot more "realistic" in your own terms.

3) There is nothing, i repeat, NOTHING realistic in AD&D. There are wizards, elves, miracle workers AKA clerics, orcs, gods, demons, and bizarre monsters in it. Not even the armors were realistic: a chainmail is by no means a "light" armor that a bard or a rogue could use. It's heavier than :):):):): over 30 kg the Hauberk alone. It was the definition of heavy armor during most Middle Ages. And the weapons... ¿three attacks with a bow for a single swing of a blade? Just plain ridiculous realisticly speaking. In the time that an archer charges the arrow and shoot, I give him three blows with my sword. It's just a fact: an english archer could fire 8-10 by minute, a swordsman can attack over sixty times in that time, and a knife man even more. And the darts... don't even mention them. The word that defines a fictional world is NEVER realistic. In Spanish we differentiate between "realistic" (tied to reality) and "verosímil" (similar to reality, plausible, credible in a context). I did not find a speciific word to relate to, but vraisemblance is akin to this.

5ed empowered the numbers over the sheer power of one individual. A group of orcs, well used, can be a worthy challenge over a party. They can even defeat them (although with heavy losses on their side) So... no. No chance that it's unbalanced or overpowered compared with AD&D. If any, is clearer, more realistic, and balanced than previous editions. Yes the classes have now more options. Yes, the bonuses are more frequent than in the "old days": but there more options, more bonuses for every class in the game, including NPCs and monsters. You don't like the hp recovery? Go to the GDM: there are several options to make it harder. I use them, and the play is overall well tuned, fun, and more verosimile than any previous edition.

If you have something you think is over-powered in 5th Edition, come here and talk about it.
 

In Spanish we differentiate between "realistic" (tied to reality) and "verosímil" (similar to reality, plausible, credible in a context). I did not find a speciific word to relate to, but vraisemblance is akin to this.
In English the word is "verisimilitude".

Also, I agree that the AD&D druid XP table is very generous!
 

In terms of enjoying one edition over another - pick the one you like and enjoy. There are a lot of materials for Chainmail, original, AD&D, Basic/Expert/etc..., 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4th, 4.5, 5, Pathfinder, GURPs, Rollmaster, etc..

Back to the original question: Overpowered is kind of irrelevant. The question isn't one of power, it is one of fun. Anything that makes the game less fun for players should be avoided. If one PC steals the spotlight because they're so much more effective than other PCs, then that should be addressed if the other players find it less enjoyable to have that element in the game. But that is also true if it isn't power, but style that bothers others.
 

In English the word is "verisimilitude".

Also, I agree that the AD&D druid XP table is very generous!

Yes, I wasn't shure about it (:):):):)ing WordReference). Over the topic about sharpshooter... I tend to use as a DM more NPCs than monsters. And the NPCs use to be in larger groups, and have less HP and higher armor. I even give them racial traits (I mostly deal with variant humans), so a feat like Heavy Armored, plus racial modifications to a Guard, plus a chainmail and a shield, plus numbers... any sharpshooter will be at the stake to overcome the high AC with his aimed shots. A few maneuvers also help: phalanxes or shield walls give the NPCs Cover, depending on the size of the shields (if the shields are pavese and the NPCs have spears, for example, I give them full cover, or at least 3/4 cover). And yet, yes, a crossbowman expert can kill one or two npcs every turn (with a bit of luck), but ten will reach him and stabb him to death.
 

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