• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Proposal: Fighter/mage/thief: quick and dirty concurrent multiclassing/gestalt rules

Would you use these multiclassing rules?


Actually, I said "...from the point of view...". Didn't we just have a discussion in this very thread about how you look at things like an optimizer (this coming from you, not me)?

No. We had a discussion about how I'm a natural powergamer, but in actual table play I don't powergame, I tend to run support and try to stay in the background. That made it particularly confusing when you wrote

Sure Hemlock, from the point of view of an optimizer like yourself, both systems are bad and neither option would ever be worth playing.

because we had literally just had a discussion about how that isn't my playstyle at all.

Moving on...

He's pretty darn mad in my book. He needs a good Str and Int, and wants a good Con and at least a 14 Dex.

Sorry, what I meant was "he's not very MAD compared to a PHB-multiclassed Barbarian/Wizard, due to double ASIs." He can boost Str and Int and be just fine in either role. Con and Dex can stay around 14. He's more MAD than a single-classed Barbarian but he's getting twice the ASIs to compensate.

(Or he could focus on buffs and utility and ignore Int in favor of Str/Con.)

The hybrid sacrifices flexibility in leveling. He's locked in to his progression. The multiclassed character can grow in whatever lopsided progression he desires. Additionally, the hybrid will have 25% less hit dice and a lower proficiency bonus. That's hardly nothing.

Not what I wrote. "Unlike the Cleric/Druid, he's not really sacrificing anything from either class." I didn't write "he's not sacrificing anything relative to the PHB-multiclassed character", because I am not an idiot and I am fully aware that he will have fewer hit die and a lower proficiency bonus because that's what multiclassing does, always. Don't twist my words.

As I've shown before in this thread, it is not double ASIs. A two class hybrid gets one more ASI over 20 levels. Which is no different than playing variant human.

As I've shown before in this thread, letting hybrid characters get ASIs from every class can result in the hybrid having nine ASIs before the single-classed character gets his fifth ASI.

I don't consider Cleric11/Druid9 to be a trap option, you do. What I don't want to do is turn it into a trap option by giving the hybrid a ton more spell slots than the multiclassed, at which point the multiclass really would be a trap. It might work in your system due to the lack of synergy, but remember that one of my goals is to preserve synergy. As such, my hybrids need alternative limitations.

I consider PHB Barbarian 10/Wizard 10 to be dominated by a hybrid 15th level Barbarian/Wizard. 33% more HP and +6 proficiency does not make up for losing access to 6th-8th level spells and a third of your spellcasting capacity (94 spell points vs 64, or equivalent in slots), 11th-15th level features like Maximize and two ASIs (six ASIs vs. four).

This doesn't bother me that much because Barbarian 10/Wizard 10 is already a trap, but it comes quite close to dominating Barbarian 5/Wizard 15 too. Since Barbarian 5/Wizard 15 is viable today, but wouldn't be under these rules, I see that as a problem. The solution I use for preventing it: 15th level Barbarian/Wizard has only three ASIs vs. four for the Barbarian 5/Wizard 15. The price he pays for his versatility is that he is MADder.

YMMV.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I haven't put much thought into the three class combos (simply because they require more in-depth examination), but I think taking out the subclasses would likely make your two class combo too weak with that advancement, at least at higher levels.

I really don't think so. The lion's share of class abilities come from non-subclass abilities. Each class gets about 4 abilities from their subclass, roughly one at each tier of play. That's it. You gain more abilities by taking another class than you gain from a subclass. The only class that really loses out is Ranger, but that class is built wonky anyways with virtually all the class's combat abilities coming from spells and subclass abilities. Clerics and Warlocks are weird without path options, but that's really the only problem.

By all means if you want to try it go ahead and add in the subclass abilities or modify the level progression, but I think that makes multiclassing too appealing. Remember, D&D is a class based game. Class should be important, and single classed characters should be favored in general (otherwise, they have no point). Multiclassing shouldn't be a path to more power than a single classed character. It should be a means to sacrifice the power from specialization to gain flexibility. Since I don't want characters to sacrifice proficiency bonus or hit dice because game math is built around those always scaling, there has to be a cost somewhere.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
No. We had a discussion about how I'm a natural powergamer, but in actual table play I don't powergame, I tend to run support and try to stay in the background. That made it particularly confusing when you wrote

because we had literally just had a discussion about how that isn't my playstyle at all.

Moving on...

Yeah, you said you look at things like a powergamer and you like to play support. You also said that both a hybrid and multiclassed cleric/druid is bad. Am I mistaken that you would play this combination?

Sorry, what I meant was "he's not very MAD compared to a PHB-multiclassed Barbarian/Wizard, due to double ASIs." He can boost Str and Int and be just fine in either role. Con and Dex can stay around 14. He's more MAD than a single-classed Barbarian but he's getting twice the ASIs to compensate.

(Or he could focus on buffs and utility and ignore Int in favor of Str/Con.)

Except that as has been established numerous times, a Barbarian/Wizard gets 6 ASIs over 20 levels, which is not double since single-classed characters get 5 ASIs over 20 levels.

Not what I wrote. "Unlike the Cleric/Druid, he's not really sacrificing anything from either class." I didn't write "he's not sacrificing anything relative to the PHB-multiclassed character", because I am not an idiot and I am fully aware that he will have fewer hit die and a lower proficiency bonus because that's what multiclassing does, always. Don't twist my words.

Either way they're sacrificing. I'm not twisting words, you're splitting hairs.

As I've shown before in this thread, letting hybrid characters get ASIs from every class can result in the hybrid having nine ASIs before the single-classed character gets his fifth ASI.

Actually, while I might be mistaken, I believe I was the one who showed that a hybrid can have 9 ASIs. I posted a table. But that is only true of a three class hybrid, which is the MADdest.

Besides, we were discussing two class hybrids (Cleric/Druid and Barbarian/Wizard). Apples aren't oranges.

I consider PHB Barbarian 10/Wizard 10 to be dominated by a hybrid 15th level Barbarian/Wizard. 33% more HP and +6 proficiency does not make up for losing access to 6th-8th level spells and a third of your spellcasting capacity (94 spell points vs 64, or equivalent in slots), 11th-15th level features like Maximize and two ASIs (six ASIs vs. four).

This doesn't bother me that much because Barbarian 10/Wizard 10 is already a trap, but it comes quite close to dominating Barbarian 5/Wizard 15 too. Since Barbarian 5/Wizard 15 is viable today, but wouldn't be under these rules, I see that as a problem. The solution I use for preventing it: 15th level Barbarian/Wizard has only three ASIs vs. four for the Barbarian 5/Wizard 15. The price he pays for his versatility is that he is MADder.

YMMV.

You're welcome to your own opinion of course.
 

Yeah, you said you look at things like a powergamer and you like to play support. You also said that both a hybrid and multiclassed cleric/druid is bad. Am I mistaken that you would play this combination?

I might, under the right circumstances. Sometimes I want to play things that are deliberately bad. See for example the 3d6-in-order thread. There's a PC concept therewhich I would love to try out someday (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?475244-3d6-in-Order/page7). It's an Con 8 Int 7 wizard, which is indisputably bad.

What I really want to do is take a bunch of these reject characters and see if they can still beat a DMG-balanced adventuring day.

[snip]

Last one: after about fifty rolls, I got this:

678749
Clearly we have a winner. As tempting as it is to make this guy a front-line Heavy Armor Master fighter in plate mail whose job is primarily to Dodge and soak hits, I think I am instead going to have to make him... a rage-filled, manic-depressive Necromancer with massive self-esteem issues and a grudge against the world. And you know what's funny? He can even be a viable character in combat. Slap some plate armor and a shield on him and his Dex doesn't matter; plate armor prevents spellcasting and gives disadvantage on Str/Dex saving throws/ability checks/attack rolls, but this guy doesn't even care since he already blew all of his spell slots on his undead minions; during combat he can Dodge while using his bonus action to shriek, "Kill them! Kill them all!" at his zombies and skeletons. He can use up his 1st and 2nd level spell slots on utility spells like Unseen Servant (pull the flesh off these bones!), Rope Trick, Find Familiar, and Longstrider (cancels out the speed penalty from plate armor), and he won't care about the fifteen minutes it takes to shuck/don his armor so he can cast those spells. He'll eventually learn Fabricate so he can make his own weapons and armor for his undead army (Guild Merchant background).

It would almost be a pity to spend his ASIs on boosting his stats. If I could think of a good way to spend his feats that did not involve raising his stats... maybe he gradually, over time, acclimates himself to his armor? By 19th level he could have Light/Medium/Heavy Armor proficiency, Heavy Armor Master, Lucky, and Tough. AC 25 (Spell Mastery: Shield), 102 HP, and a whole army of undead.

I kind of want to use this guy as a BBEG.

I'll name him Giuseppe Zengara.

The rest of the discussion about your hybrid system is unproductive and I'm not interested in continuing it. If your system works for you, more power to you. That's all.
 
Last edited:

Fanaelialae

Legend
I might, under the right circumstances. Sometimes I want to play things that are deliberately bad. ...snip...

Mea culpa. I shouldn't have said that a cleric/druid would never be worth playing for you.

The rest of the discussion about your hybrid system is unproductive and I'm not interested in continuing it. If your system works for you, more power to you. That's all.

Works for me.

As an aside, it occurred to me that the Minionmancers do have a way to reach their maximum number of controlled undead. They simply require a magic item to give them one extra casting of Animate Dead to create undead, so that the next day they can use their normal allotment of slots (without needing the magic item) to control the maximum possible. The item might be a humble Scroll of Animate Dead or a Ring of Spell Storing. Obviously magic items weren't part of my original argument, no argument there, but it is possible.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
After some thought, I decided to retool my hybrid system. It's a little more complex now, but given that I always considered it an advanced option I'm fine with that.

I changed out the extra ASIs for APs, which can only be applied to increasing Ability Scores. APs are gained earlier than ASIs, because I still want to avoid discouraging MAD concepts. Additionally, the progression is now such that when a single-classed character is level 20, hybrids will have an equivalent to a +10 to their ability scores (equivalent to 5 ASIs, but less flexible).

Spellcasters now get bonus spell slots if they have more than one spellcasting class. You choose one class to grant your primary spellcasting progression which you get in full, and then secondary spellcasting classes grant spell slots at a reduced rate. The reduced rate is derived by halving the normal progression and rounding down, but half slots can add to other half slots to create an additional slot (as long as it doesn't create an illogical progression). If you pair a full progression casting class with a warlock then I require that warlock be the secondary, since based on my analysis pairing primary Warlock with a secondary full casting class results in a trap option.

Because both can be viewed as buffs (the AP system does constrain options and reduce the number of ASIs characters previously gained, but it also grants APs earlier than they would otherwise have gotten their ASIs), a balancing factor was necessary. I chose to add a 10% xp penalty for each class the character has (20% for dual hybrids and 30% for triple hybrids). This had the added benefit of bringing the dual class spellcasters more in line with where I wanted them originally, since I feel that having them max out at 7th level spells is a bit more reasonable than 8th (it gives single classed casters a more distinct advantage). It also had the welcome side effect of moving the level cap to 14th level for dual classed characters and 11th level for triple classed characters, both of which are good levels for most of the classes (while it's not strictly necessary for hybrids to have capstone features, it is nice) for a campaign that ends around 20th level (355,000 xp).

Hybridization must be done when the character is created, and cannot be combined with multiclassing. You can choose to have either two hybrid classes, or three hybrid classes. A hybrid character divides xp evenly between all of their classes and requires 10% more xp for each class, although xp tables that take this into account are provided below for the sake of convenience. These tables allow you to track a single xp total, as opposed to having to divide your xp between your classes.

- Hybrid characters gain one Hit Die each level. Use the best hit die from among your classes.
- Gain all armor, weapon, and tool proficiencies from all classes.
- Choose one common (Dex, Con, or Wis) and one uncommon (Str, Int, or Cha) save, from those available to your classes, to be proficient in.
- Choose the highest number of starting skills offered among your classes. These skills can be chosen from any of your class lists.
- Starting gold as per any one of your classes (your choice).
- If you gain multiple Ability Score Increases at the same level, you only get one of them. However, you get Ability Points (AP), as indicated on your XP table. Each AP may be used to increase an ability score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- Refer below for the rules regarding Hybrid Spellcasting.

DualHybridXP.JPGTripleHybridXP.JPG

Hybrid Spellcasting

Choose one of your classes as your primary casting class. Your other classes are considered secondary casting classes. You gain the normal progression of spell slots listed for your primary class. You gain bonus slots as indicated below from any of your secondary classes that have a spellcasting progression. Refer below for the rules regarding Hybrid Pact Magic.

FullCastingSecondary.JPGHalfCastingSecondary.JPGThirdCastingSecondary.JPG

Hybrid Pact Magic

In the case of Pact Magic, you gain the number of spell slots listed below, which refresh after a short rest as per normal. Additionally, you can upgrade a number of slots from your primary casting class to also refresh after a short rest. An upgraded spell slot cannot be higher than 5th level. Pact Magic is always secondary if you have a full progression non-Pact Magic spellcasting class.

PactMagicFullCastingSecondary.JPG


Analysis:

ReverseHybridLevelTable.JPG

HybridASIs.JPG

CWEx.JPG

CSWEx.JPG

PSEx.JPG

EKWEx.JPG

SWEx.JPG
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top