We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

At which point you are using it like a sword! ;)

Let's face it. When she was practicing out there, she wasn't using it like a staff. She was going through sword forms.

No, at which point you're using the staff forms that use its reach advantage. Just as you do with spear. Just as you do with pole weapons. Check out some of the Medieval treatise ;)
 

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I'm not saying there weren't better ways to show this, but the intent was clear. There is no reason to believe that Lucas intended the scene to show how weak three Masters who we barely knew were. The only fair read of the scene is that it was meant to show that Sidious was powerful.

Are we counting down to 0 on the masters? I started by guessing 5, and you responded with 4. I went with 4, and now you're at 3. Any Sith Lord worth a grain of salt can take two Jedi masters. He didn't need to be strong for that! ;)

No, but it does make it clear that you are far more powerful than the ants.
Sure, but unlike a single Jedi master, ants aren't supposed to be a threat.

Anakin makes this explicit in his dialogue in the scene. Mace says he's too dangerous to be left alive, Anakin says it's not the Jedi way to kill an defenseless person. Again, I agree that Lucas failed in execution, but that doesn't mean we can't understand what the intent was. In this case, that Anakin attacked Mace to prevent him from killing Sidious.
Sidious wasn't defenseless, though. No Sith is.

Fair enough, I missatributed that to you or overstated your position. Allow me to restate. I'd be interested in hearing your counter argument to the point I intended to make rather than make semantic arguments that don't push the discussion forward.
The force guides Jedi in being able to interpose their weapon or get out of the way of things. It doesn't give technical skill. When you see Jedi, or Sith for that matter, using technical sword skill, it's because they were trained in it.

Luke is able to deflect blaster bolts 30 seconds after being instructed to "let go your conscious self and act on instinct.", "You're eyes can deceive you, don't trust them," and "Stretch out with your feelings". The Force guided his hands to accomplish something that even someone with great skill in melee combat couldn't accomplish (see Grevious in RotS). Why is it a stretch that when Rey "let go her conscious self and acted on instinct" that the force couldn't have helped her to parry Kylo's light saber strikes? She is instructed earlier in the film to let the force guide her, and then in the fight she does exactly that. Prior to that moment, it isn't clear if Kylo is trying to defeat her or is merely testing her to see if she is worthy of becoming his pupil. She is acting on the instinct of her staff training. He knows the Force is strong in her. He tells her explicitly that she needs a teacher. She then remembers what she was taught, same as Luke did when making his trench run against the Death Star.
When Luke blocked those bolts, he didn't do it with technical sword skill. He just threw the saber into the way. Rey isn't doing that. She's using sword skill that she wasn't trained with. Those were sword moves, not staff moves being used to help her with her lightsaber. The moves for a staff look different than ones for a sword.

In ESB, Yoda admonishes Luke that he must learn control. The Jedi Order spent decades training pupils not to make them powerful, but to teach them control of the power that had been given them. To indoctrinate them into a rigid structure for using that power, inoculate them from the dark side and to ensure the supremacy of the Republic. That's why there was a program to identify and indoctrinate all force sensitives from an early age. The Jedi Order was the Avengers and the X-Men and the Superhero Registration Act and the Mutant Registry and the Sakovia Accords all wrapped into one to serve the Republic. And for 1,000 years, with the Republic in full control of them, they were the only super power. Bring a Nuke, I mean Jedi, to a negotiation and the opposing side has no choice but to capitulate. Unless they have a Nuke, I mean Sith, of their own. Obi-Wan and Luke both learn that the only true way to serve the force is through self sacrifice, not through trying to control the outcome of things. That's what being a true Jedi Master is, and what the Jedi Order of the Prequels had forgotten.
There were dark force users that were not Sith, though. We saw at least one of those in movies. Count Dooku wasn't Sith. The Mandalorians were also adept at killing Jedi and had metal that could resist a lightsaber. Others could kill them as well. While Jedi were big fish(probably the biggest fish), they weren't the only big fish, nor were they the only ones with nukes.
 

No, at which point you're using the staff forms that use its reach advantage. Just as you do with spear. Just as you do with pole weapons. Check out some of the Medieval treatise ;)

She wasn't using staff forms, though. That was sword work. If she was using it like a staff, that would actually make sense.
 


Well, Luke was great at flying sophisticated, cutting edge military hardware all because he had a souped up T-16 hot rod back home. So... yeah. The narratives are very similar yet it’s Luke who gets the pass but not Rey. Too right we know why...
Well, it seems Luke was already trained as a Pilot when we met him. I figure in Star Wars it might be almost as common as a driver's license, though.


I think one of the big differences is that Luke that when Luke uses the Force or the Light Saber, he seems to be actually struggling. Luke's first attempt at force-grabbing his light saber fails. When he trains with Yoda, he fails to lift the X-Wing up, and gets his concentration broken during other tasks and drops everything he's levitating.
When he first has a real light saber fight... He's not horrible at it, but clearly outmatched by Vader, who easily swings his light saber and utilizes the force to overwhelm him. But Vader at this point doesn't even want to kill him. And Luke still loses a hand...
His second fight against Vader doesn't go well at first - only once he taps in to the Dark Side does he start overwhelming Vader, which obviously plays more into the theme that the Dark Side is a seductive short cut, and doesn't mean he suddenly is more skillful.

Rey so far somehow lacked scenes where she really had to struggle hard and outright lose. And that is what is creating the impression that she's basically overpowered or a Mary Sue. Her first fight with Kylo Ren seems to go a bit too easy for her - even though that might just because he's wounder. But it still leads to the feeling that she never haves a hard time and a great challenge she has to overcome. That makes her less ... exciting.


Not to derail the current conversation but, if this trilogy is to wipe the slate clean (or more generously complete) the Skywalker saga presumably because Skywalkers are uber powerful with the force, then isn’t that to a degree derailed if Rey is stronger with the force than Luke? And so equal to the strongest Skywalker (Ben). Having written that down I can see that I’ve made a couple of assumptions that might not be true ;)

I think one of the challenges that I have with where Star Wars is heading is that the “Episodes” are intrinsically linked with the Skywalker family. But that may just mean that there are just not going to be any more Episodes in the future ...
Will Daisy Ridley also be available for movies after the first trilogy? Because it will be kinda awkward to not have her available when she is the new Jedi Star at the horizon. Unless she dies in the last part?

I am not sure if it was Abrams or Johnson that really made Rey another "special chosen with even more exceptional Jedi powers than who came before". But it seems it could become a bit ridiculous if they don't get rid of this concept. Otherwise it will be turtles all the way down, and chosen of the force all the way up.

A reason why I would have thought that just going with Luke successfully establishing a new, young Jedi Order between RotJ and TFA would have been better. No need for super-Jedi, just regular ones, but they are still much rarer than in the old Republic, so we can focus on the journey of a newly discovered Force Sensitive (and I very much like the idea of a female Jedi) on his way to become a Jedi, that might be getting in over his head at first but manages to save the day and find his path.
 
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Well, it seems Luke was already trained as a Pilot when we met him. I figure in Star Wars it might be almost as common as a driver's license, though.


I think one of the big differences is that Luke that when Luke uses the Force or the Light Saber, he seems to be actually struggling. Luke's first attempt at force-grabbing his light saber fails. When he trains with Yoda, he fails to lift the X-Wing up, and gets his concentration broken during other tasks and drops everything he's levitating.
When he first has a real light saber fight... He's not horrible at it, but clearly outmatched by Vader, who easily swings his light saber and utilizes the force to overwhelm him. But Vader at this point doesn't even want to kill him. And Luke still loses a hand...
His second fight against Vader doesn't go well at first - only once he taps in to the Dark Side does he start overwhelming Vader, which obviously plays more into the theme that the Dark Side is a seductive short cut, and doesn't mean he suddenly is more skillful.

Rey so far somehow lacked scenes where she really had to struggle hard and outright lose. And that is what is creating the impression that she's basically overpowered or a Mary Sue. Her first fight with Kylo Ren seems to go a bit too easy for her - even though that might just because he's wounder. But it still leads to the feeling that she never haves a hard time and a great challenge she has to overcome. That makes her less ... exciting.
.

There’s a lot of selective memory going on here, though. Her first attempt to use the Force takes multiple attempts like Luke’s attempt to move his lightsaber. And she does struggle in the fight with Kylo Ren in TFA. She never competes with anyone as overpowered as Vader, but that hardly makes her a Mary Sue.

Ultimately, all Jedi protagonists are somewhat akin to Mary Sue characters, but it only gets saddled on Rey when Anakin was multiple times worse in his trilogy.
 


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