Lets design a Warlord for 5th edition

Tony Vargas

Legend
I’m still curious about how David Jester feels battlemaster dice aren’t too much like spells for a warlord to use.

I suppose they're just sufficiently inferior ...
...and short-rest-recharge.

Mike's Tactical Insights and Gambits, OTOH, they're dailies and Gambits are learned, swapped out on a long rest and used spontaneously.

He was using the EK as a template, of course...
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Zardnaar

Legend
I suppose they're just sufficiently inferior ...
...and short-rest-recharge.

Mike's Tactical Insights and Gambits, OTOH, they're dailies and Gambits are learned, swapped out on a long rest and used spontaneously.

He was using the EK as a template, of course...

Irrelevant completely different chasis we're building a support class not a warrior with a side helping of support.

If you have BM dice or tie attack granting to proficiency saves and throw in some gambits they can learn and they can get another none via feat they grow into it like the Sorcerer who devotes things to haste I suppose.

Natural spell was level 6 in a previous edition, now its 18. Either idea above solves the attack granting thing and lets you use it on Rogues which is 2-3 rounds of damage anyway so even if its not every round comparatively you're doing roughly the same thing.

And its fun to grant attacks to the Rogue.
 

Aldarc

Legend
In case anyone is wondering or feeling discouraged, the Warlord conversation of the past few weeks have been far more cordial than in the past. Good work, everyone!
 

I’m still curious about how David Jester feels battlemaster dice aren’t too much like spells for a warlord to use.
Why?
How does that help make a warlord? That's just an argument. Fighting for the sake of fighting. Edition warring by proxy.

Crap like that is why I'm so dismissive of warlord threads, because the posters would rather fight about :):):):) like "what is or is not a spell" or the nature of hit points that actually do the work of designing a warlord class.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
And the solution is to use battlemaster dice.
Or subsume CS dice into a more consistent mechanic...

Irrelevant completely different chasis we're building a support class not a warrior with a side helping of support.
Not irrelevant, entirely. The fighter sub-class he tossed together is essentially "1/3rd Warlord" focused on the Tactical & Bravura builds in a similar sense to the EK being a 1/3rd wizard focused on evocation & abjuration (especially had the EK come only with a handful of spells just from those schools).

So you could extrapolate the first 7 levels of a similar-design-philosophy Warlord from it, the same way you could reverse-engineer wizard from EK.
 
Last edited:

mellored

Legend
It might be easier to phrase this differently, rather than defining the maximum and then halving that. Perhaps having a base amount of Tactical Points and then saying the maximum is twice that number.
Yea, the wording could possibly be cleaned up in several places.

Still, that seems low. With a 14 Int, at level 1 you'd have 1 point at the start of combat. Not much to do stuff with. At level 2-3 you'd have 2, level 4-5 you'd have 3, 6-7 you'd have 4. At level 8 you might boost Int to 16... and still end up with 5. Might as well just go 1/2 level +1.
Or even 1/2 proficiency at low levels, a feature that makes it proficiency at mid-levels, and finally twice proficiency at higher levels...
1 point unless you spend your action, yes. This is just level 1, you get more ways to charge later.

Starting each battle with 1/2 proficency sounds good. Though I have other ideas for scaling. Mainly, each sub-class will have a condition to gain more points, plus some general boosts in the core class. That gives each sub-class a unique play-style, while retaining flexibility.

This has a high action cost. Most combats only last 2-3 rounds. Burning your entire turn to do this means you might get a bunch of cool stuff the next round... that you might not be able to use.
This let's you trade 1 action to grant 1 attack. And it allows the class to be a hybrid of at-will and limited resources.

Though, maybe remove the Int part and make it a flat +3. Then even low Int tacticans can grant attacks, at least at level 6.

Unsure about Charisma to saves. It makes the class a little MAD.
Saves don't force you to level up in a stat. I mean, wizards get Wis saves, but rarely boost Wis beyond 12.
You can pick and choose. There's aren't many Int or Cha features. Which (hopefully) will be easy enough to skip and good enough to focus on.
So (ideally) you can go Str/Int, Str/Cha, Int/Cha, Dex/Int, ect...

Though, another reason to remove Int from Assess the situation.

It's potentially confusing to have two different abilities restoring the same pool but granting different amounts. Instead, it could be "You can used Assess the Situation as a bonus action. Once you do so, you must complete a short rest to use this feature again."
Good idea.
And another reason to make Assess the Situaition a flat bonus.

The warlord immediately looks at the unknown creature and guesses its AC or Dexterity save before anyone has acted. What are they assessing?
The way it moves, it's armor, it's weapons, the size of it's legs and arms, how it carries itself, ect... "The orc is wearing heavy armor and a shield" gives you a rough idea. A tactician can be a bit more precises.

Is there an associated reaction? Or can you just do this at-will? (A question for most of these powers.)
At-will. No action.
It's why I keep the points low. And use an action to recharge them.

This is weird but I kinda dig it. Tricking someone into taking a weapon attack. An extra d8 might be a bit high though. A Bravado warlord could do this every round dealing 2d8 each round. Pretty high for what amounts to a level 3 cantrip. Would Str and Dex still be applied to the damage?
Yes, a bravada could do 2d8+str each round, using Cha as the "to-hit" save. A rogue can do 3d6+dex.
Maybe a little strong.

It would probably be better to break it up into 2 tactics.
1 point to trick people.
1 point to add 1d8 damage.

A +10 bonus to AC is pretty high.
5 points is a lot to spend.
That's more than an action's to negate an oppertunity attack.

Though for some reason "You don't need to roll" seems to generate less anger than "+10". Just look at how many people complain about rogues expertise, but no one takes spider climb.
So i'll switch it to flat avoid an OA. Less out-of-turn rolling that way too.

These do mirror the lazylord nicely, with the character just standing back and using Assess on their turn to keep themselves maxed with TP, and then dolling these bonuses out as needed. Especially paired with the Crier.
Yup. That's the lazy-lord sub-class.
Though, I'll switch it to +Int points, since I'm removing Int from the base Assess the Situation.

I can imagine it getting a little fiddly. "I give him 2 points. Does a 16 hit? How about a 17? An 18 then? Just tell me the AC then and I'll subtract the right amount of TP..." It's a little too clean. Adding a "one per turn" limit keeps that less busy, and it might be more dramatic to make it 1d4/2TP spent.
Hence why you can use a reaction to tell someone's AC.

But yea, it should be 1/event. (I still want to be able to let someone avoid an OA, and help on an attack in the same turn).

Thanks for the feedback.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Why?
How does that help make a warlord? That's just an argument. Fighting for the sake of fighting. Edition warring by proxy.

Crap like that is why I'm so dismissive of warlord threads, because the posters would rather fight about :):):):) like "what is or is not a spell" or the nature of hit points that actually do the work of designing a warlord class.

When you criticisize other's work as being to spell-like it's going to be expected you be able to explain why you don't feel other similar mechanics already in the game don't fall under that same category or else it looks more like you saying something was too spell-like was just you being dismissive for no good reason.

Remember it was you that brought up the too spell-like criticism not me. Maybe I should as you a similar question to what you asked me when you said "How does that help make a warlord?" So Jester, How does calling a mechanic too spell-like help make a warlord if your not willing to discuss what the cut-off point for too spell-like is?

Oh and just to make it clear, the answer to your question "How does that help make a warlord?" It allows us to determine whether your original criticism may have merit. If it doesn't have merit we can just ignore it. If it does have merit then it helps define what the line between too spell-like and not too spell-like is. (Merit being whether your criticism is a criticism to 5e as a whole which can be disregarded or if it's only applicable to the specific warlord mechanic in question which is something that should be considered)

I do have one ultimate curiosity. How is it that you can bring up the issue of something being to spell like and that's not edition warring by proxy, or fighting about what's a spell and what's not a spell. But for some reason it's only the person that challenges you about such things that's edition warring by proxy and fighting about what's a spell and not a spell. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? Aren't you just as guilty of the same offenses you hate in others? Aren't you maybe more guilty for doing the same things you hate them doing and then trying to call them out on those things just for disagreeing with your post?

Oh and one final point, determining whether something is or isn't too spell-like is part of the design process. This is a community effort. Just because you think something is too spell-like doesn't mean it gets thrown out as a design automatically. You've got to convince other's that's the case or at least have enough people here agreeing with you to make it apparent it's a real problem.
 
Last edited:

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Baseline should probably be 1d8+5. Note most clerics are 1d6+2 or 3.

Previous page I did not ignore haste but its daily effect and it takes a long time to come online.

A level 5 battlemaster can probably grant more attacks than a lvl 5 Sorcerer. Haste is limited supply daily effect drawback and can be countered and interrupted.

I've never once been in a party where the highest damage character did 1d8+mod damage per attack. Have you?

I do have a point here if you start being reasonable about what the least-highest single attack character you normally see in a party is.
 
Last edited:

When you criticisize other's work as being to spell-like it's going to be expected you be able to explain why you don't feel other similar mechanics already in the game don't fall under that same category or else it looks more like you saying something was too spell-like was just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Remember it was you that brought up the too spell-like criticism not me.
*sigh*

The whole POINT of a design thread is to post your mechanics and get feedback on your design.
Please refer to my last few interactions with mellored, where I critiqued his design and tried to point out the relevant problems so he could fix them. He agreed with me in a few places and disagreed in others, and the dialogue will make his final design stronger.
If you cannot take the criticism, then you should not participate in such a thread.


As far as the Battle Master fighter goes there's a few factors at work.
First, not all fighters get maneuvers. It's a choice. So you can have people who take the martial class and not receive powers.
Because not everyone wants to play a "spellcaster". And the primary reason is because they don't want to have to manage a lot of fiddly powers, not because they're called "spells" or explicitly magical. The simple characters tend to be "martial" to make it easier to direct people to them.
Having a martial character gain a bunch of fiddly spells chosen from a long list is designing a non-spellcaster class like a spellcaster. It says the class is a martial one when it really isn't. It's a bait and switch.

The battle master is the compromise design. Because someone people like the concept of playing a warrior but do want some choices of power and complexity.
But, as far as powers go, they're simple. You choose from a list of just sixteen powers and most are just a paragraph long, being shorter than most spells. And there's very little management required, with most being resolved in a single turn. You also have a small "hand size", starting with three maneuvers for three levels of play, and never learning more than nine at level 15. (A warlock hits nine known spells at level 5, while a sorcerer goes from eight to ten at level 4.)


A good warlord design should appeal to people who don't want to play a spellcaster and not asking them to manage the resources of a full or half spellcaster. (At least by default. That kind of option could be opted into.)
Especially the healer warlord. The appeal of that build is a healer that isn't a spellcaster. So it should not play like one, or the player would just play a cleric/ druid/ bard/ sorcerer/ warlock/ paladin.
If playing a warlord feels like you're playing a cleric with "spells" crossed out and "gambits" or "maneuvers" written in then the design has failed.


Meanwhile, your powers are very much designed like this:
Empowering Strike:
Trigger: When you attack an enemy
Level 1 Effect: If you hit you may grant an ally an extra 1d6 damage on his first attack against the enemy
Level 5 Effect: If you hit you may grant an ally an extra 2d6 damage on his first attack against the enemy
Level 11 Effect: If you hit you may grant an ally an extra 3d6 damage on his first attack against the enemy
Warlord Point: You grant the ally advantage on his first attack.

Which is pretty much this:
warlord.PNG

That's not remotely how 5e is designed or written.
I suggest actually looking at the Battle Master and reading how they phrased abilities like Distracting Strike. I'd also point you to the monk to see how the format abilities that rely on modifying features based on points.


Getting into the nitty gritty, the terms "enemy" and "ally" do not appear in the rules of 5e. They're very rarely used in rules text. "Hostile creature" or "target" would be used in the place of the former while "friendly creature" in the latter.
There's no limitations on the ally line. They can be at any range increment and not have seen the attack. Not that this is always necessary, but requiring sight makes the effect less magical.
Also, is it any ally? An ally of your choice? The next ally to attack?
The rules are also gender neutral and do not use terms like "him" or "his". So your "on his first attack" doesn't match the writing style of the rules.
Plus there's no associated action. "When you attack an enemy" could be after taking the Attack action, making an opportunity attack, or after using the Ready action. Is that the intent?

A better wording would be:
Empowering Strike. When you take the Attack action on your turn and hit with a melee or ranged attack, the next attack against the target by an attacker other than you deals an additional 1d6 damage. Additionally, you can spend 1 warlord point to give advantage to the next attack roll against the target by a creature other than you.
The damage of this feature increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).​
 
Last edited:

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
[MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION]

Thank you for turning the conversation back in the direction it needed to be. I'll respond to your post in more detail soon.

I do want to say that I think sometimes what you intend as criticism may come across more as being outright dismissive and it's hard to have a conversation instead of a shouting match when that's what's perceived. I'm not trying to blame you, just giving you some advice to watch out for posts and comments that can overly come across that way.
 

Remove ads

Top